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building a 1911

9K views 49 replies 17 participants last post by  JoeSeif 
#1 · (Edited)
I am new to the forum and no expert on the 1911 and do not own one, but i decided that i deffinatly need a 45 auto. i love history, the feel,and the looks. My grandfather carried one in ww2 but low and behold my uncle sold it. i would like to buy one piece by piece. I believe this may be a bad idea and a very troulbsome journey but i still like the idea. i have a very competent gunsmith willing to help me with any problems i encounter. My question is where would the best places be to get the parts i need. i just want to get the best parts possible and lowest cost possible. i am not looking so much for accuracy but more for reliability.

thanks:)
 
#2 · (Edited)
Brownell's www.brownells.com has pretty much any part you need from most of the top manufacturers.

As far as the gun itself goes, if you want to do it totally from scratch, a frame and slide from Caspian is the way to go. Otherwise any Colt, Springfield, or Kimber would be a good "base" gun to do some mods to.

As far as "cheapest" goes, unless you're a dealer you're stuck paying retail which is pretty close no matter where you get the stuff. Check with your smith' and see if he's willing to get you your parts at his price. A lot of smith's just charge for their actual work, and don't try to make extra by charging you retail for the parts too. (at least the ones I'd use!)
 
#4 · (Edited)
Jerry Kunhausen's 1911 shop manuals vol 1 and 2 are both available from Brownells, and will have everything you'd need to know about how all the various parts work together, and pretty much anything else you can think of 1911-wise.

Stock numbers of books:

924-200-045
924-800-245

There are many other books out there with some good info, but this is probably the most used and well-known. Of course, if you stick around here on the forum long enough you'll probably learn a bunch of stuff too. One thing I do which I'd recommend is to use the search feature (a lot) on specifically what you're needing help with first.

Most of the good folks here don't mind one bit answering a question they've heard before, but there is also a wealth of information here in past threads that you will definitely want to take advantage of!
 
#5 ·
there was a special 1911-only edition of custom handguns magazine the commented on the build-it-yourself handgunner. One tidbit (other than that brownells has everything) is that you definitely want to buy a frame/slide combo that has been cnc machined to already fit one another for the best possible tolerances. Specifically the les baer frame/slide looks good...
Also, Kartz makes a barrel that is specifically for do-it-urselfers which provides instructions for hand fitting the barrel yourself in an hour if you have a few tools to do it. I think your idea is definitely worthwhile, especially if that friend of yours is helpful- i'm jealous.
 
#6 ·
Ted Brown .45 is right on about the frame and slide and Kart barrel. Caspian will also prefit frames and slides.

The barrel timing test kit from Schuemann www.schuemann.com is also invaluable. I would say it's a must have, for the 1911 home smither with limited experience. Actually it's a good idea for anyone, and it's probably even a good idea to double check a factory made 1911 with it. It allows you to check your work in fitting a barrel and make sure the proper tolerances are maintained, and in addition, offers excellent insight into how the 1911 works and how the barrel, frame, slide, and slide stop all relate to each other.

BTW, don't let anybody dissuade you from your idea. It is not a bad idea. In fact I think it is the best thing you can do to see what kind of skill and interest you might have in gunsmithing. If you have the time and money, who really cares how your stuff turns out as long as you enjoy the process, and learn from it. The deal about having someone to help you out is also extremely important. bjg-1911, is a forum member with much more experience than me who lives in my area. He has saved me from doing something dumb plenty of times. Reading books, or online gunsmithing courses are fine, but there is no substitute for hands-on time with an experienced teacher. I have so far built three 1911s a part at a time. They may not be perfect, but I have had a blast (literally!) building them and shooting, and have learned a great deal about 1911s in general. I am under no delusions that I am a great gunsmith or anything, but there is a real sense of accomplishment that goes along with having something that you made yourself. I believe you will find it more rewarding than if you simply paid someone else to build a gun for you. It may not be quite as good but it will be YOURS. Good luck, with your project.
 
#7 ·
hhsmiley said:
Brownell's www.brownells.com
As far as "cheapest" goes, unless you're a dealer you're stuck paying retail which is pretty close no matter where you get the stuff. Check with your smith' and see if he's willing to get you your parts at his price. A lot of smith's just charge for their actual work, and don't try to make extra by charging you retail for the parts too. (at least the ones I'd use!)
Interesting, The "Smith's" I know have a price for say a beavertail installed for (pick a price) 100.00 which includes the part. If the customer provides the part for us at least the discount is based on our cost of the part. I would think the Smith should be allowed to make the profit on the part that he ordered and has the discount based on maintaining a business.
Wonder how much this has to do with the 50% ish attrition of Pistolsmith's?

I don't walk into a jewlery store and tell the guy what to charge me for a watch, (and I asure you the mark up is WAY beyond any gun parts) nor a garage and expect the brake shoes for "cost".

geo ><>
 
#9 · (Edited)
I guess the "standard" thing IS to charge retail on parts when doing labor. My experience with the folks I've actually had do work for me has been different in that regard. I guess I've just been spoiled so far :D .

I can only speak from my own experience, and that has been that I've been charged for covering the dealer cost of parts. Seems I was wrong in my assumption about the way that "most" of the gunsmiths do business. I would not hesitate to have George or Tom do work on my gun.

I stand corrected. I apologize for making it sound like charging retail is something shady. That was not my intention.
 
#10 ·
George: Since when is profit a dirty word. A Smith has the right to make money on everything he sells. The profit on most of the gun parts that I am familiar with is marginal at best after the phone calls and shipping. I happen to know that you do very high quality work and that if you deliver a product or service, it will be first class. The advice to build a "pieces -parts -junk -gun" and be satified with an ugly 1911 is not the advice that I would give, but it is typical in this Age of Mediocrity. One should never settle for anything less than the best possible outcome. If you you do not want to make the best gun possible, skip it! If you build it out of inferior parts, I can assure you that you will end up with less than nothing. Get all the books and all the other help you can find and dive in. But make it the very best you can afford. You won't regret it.
 
#11 · (Edited)
On the issue of retail pricing of parts, I was wrong. Thanks for setting me straight, George.

Now....

I just don't understand why there is a problem with someone who is interested in getting into working on, or building their own 1911s. What is inherently "mediocre" about a guy who just enjoys 1911 smithing' as a hobby?

It's like cars. A Ferrari is a piece of art on wheels, but I will likely never have the means to afford one. Why begrudge me if I want to, say, get an old Mustang, put a new engine in it fix it up, etc... I shouldn't bother because it'll never be as good as a Ferrari? That is simply "mediocre"? BS! What about the enjoyment derived in the process of working on it. I have more pride in ownership of the first "POS" 1911 I built than I would in any Heinie, or Vickers gun, because it is the fruits of my own labor.

"pieces -parts -junk -gun"
Who said anything about a "junk" gun? And when you build a 1911 here's what you have - frame, slide, barrel, and a bunch of PIECES PARTS!

Obviously, make it the best you can afford. Nobody is saying otherwise. I believe the advice given here on parts so far is that Brownell's is a good source for parts, and to use Caspian, Baer, or Kart parts. Are these "inferior" parts?

We should all try to encourage folks who want to get into 1911s rather than belittle their efforts and tell them to forget it if their idea of what a 1911 should be is not the same as ours. I really don't like to argue on the internet. I could be shooting right now :D, but I really do hate to see someone interested in 1911s bullied and potentially discouraged by others for their efforts.
 
#13 · (Edited)
Dave,
I agree that when people are to do something to do it big, and do it right the first time. I will surely get the best parts possible. I only say "for the best price possible" because I don't see a point in spending $1500 in parts. If I am wrong and should spend this much or more then please correct me because I am still new to this and am only learning. I am not really doing this to get a 1911. I would just as soon go buy a name brand.(kimber, colt, springfield, ect.) I am doing this because I loved hearing my grandfather tell how the 1911 was by far the best gun every designed. When I would sit there and listen to all of his WW2 stories it was like I was there with him. He even used to say that J. M. Browning saved his life with the 1911 just by designing it. My grandfather had many pistols and said that if he would have had anything but his 1911 45 acp. he wouldn't have been telling me about WW2. So, Dave I am not doing this to have a gun. I am doing this in memory of my grandfather. I want to learn as much as much as I can about something he loved so much. If the gun fires once after i get done with it i will be more than happy. I do appreciate yours and everyone else's advice. It will not go unused. thank you very much.:cool:
 
#14 ·
??

Clipse, where you from, I'm currently going through the same issues. Just ordered Kuhnhausen Volume 1, going to read through that first, then come to my final conclusion on what I'm going to do. If I read through it and decide there is no reason why I can't do any of it, I'll be purchasing parts left and right. I'm at the University in Columbia, just wonderin if you were from the same parts. J
 
#15 ·
Clipse,
Be careful how you take some peoples advice and encouragement. If you have time to WASTE and money to BURN, it doesn't matter what it turns out like, but if you really want to honor the memory of your grandfather and the 1911, and have a little pride, it does. Why build something less than top shelf, isn't your time and pride worth something?

Parts ain't just parts. Period. The diffrence between 'retail' and 'dealer' isn't that great, and most importantly the difference between great parts and junk isn't that much either, so don't take any short cuts, it's not worth it. But do ralize, that you can buy a 1911 a lot cheaper than you can build one, but it doesn't come with the pride your looking for.

The only good advice that I've seen Smiley give you is the reccomendation to use Caspian parts and other high quality parts. In fact Gary is making Govt replica frames and slides right now also, but there is still a lot of work to do even with them. See if your 'Smith will apprentice you, or work with you, but to be fair, he needs to be compensated, his time is worth something, just like yours should be. I think that Dave gave you much better advice than anyone is giving him credit for, because when you look at it, 2cnd best is not acceptable by most people's standards, and that doesn't mean your gun has to be better than the best, but it does have to be better than a half hearted rushed attempt that may only fire one shot. That wouldn't be much of a personal return on a 1000.00 + investment.

Don't settle for mediocrity, and don't sell qualified gunsmith's short. By all means, continue with your effort, but don't have a stable full of lame horses.
 
#16 ·
Originally posted by hhsmiley On the issue of retail pricing of parts,

I was wrong. Thanks for setting me straight, George.

HH I was not trying to pick on you nor give you a hard time, if I did sorry.
Just pointing out that it should be fine to make a profit on parts that the smith installs.

Now...

We should all try to encourage folks who want to get into 1911s rather than belittle their efforts and tell them to forget it if their idea of what a 1911 should be is not the same as ours. I really don't like to argue on the internet. I could be shooting right now :D, but I really do hate to see someone interested in 1911s bullied and potentially discouraged by others for their efforts.

I could not agree more with you on this one. This forum is to inform and share, Some have not caught on yet though.

geo ><>
 
#17 ·
For what it is worth...

I have built a couple of 1911's and I am a hobbyist. But I was a hot rodder before so I guess modifying and building is in my blood. It has been my experience using parts of good condition and quality it will cost at least $600-$800 (depending on configuration) before the labor begins. I derive great satisfaction from building and tuning 1911's.

As far as spending $1500 on a bag of parts I would opt for a big name semi custom 1911. That way my investment is protected from a resale perspective.

The advantage of building one yourself is you can try different things on the gun as your experience builds and it will be sound and decent looking. I have a favorite Caspian gun that has changed a good deal since purchase. But when I look back at the changes I see some basic structure that works nicely for me. So when I do order that gun that requires lots of $$$ I will know what I desire in the pistol.

Mike

To be honest, I was in a position a couple of times to order a Baer or Wilson gun. But I kept finding myself looking in the parts columns and sites.
 
#18 ·
My thoughts

And they're worth what you paid :D

As far as mark-up or profit on parts, any business whether it's gunsmithing or any other, is in business to make a profit. I work in my father's business, collision repair, and I am taking over the company. I have been involved in the management of the company over the course of the past five years. Before that, I would have thought it's great to get parts and cost or for the cheapest I possibly could, as a consumer. After being invloved in the running of a business and looking at gross profits, net profits, costs, sales, etc. I have a newfound way of looking at products or services I purchase. A business is just that, not a charity or a non-profit organization, the goal of every business is to make money, read profit. The profit should be fair but most people don't realize the overhead involved in running a business, insurance, etc. If the business you patronize does not make a profit then eventually they will cease to exist. Then where will you be? I don't know much about the inner workings of the gunsmith trade but in my field parts make up almost half of our sales as an industry. Imagine what my bottom line would be if I lost the profit on that sale. Simply put, speaking from my business standpoint I know what profit I need to make on each sale for it to be a profitable job and if someone wants to supply their parts then they will need to go elsewhere. We never overcharge for anything we do but we cannot fix something for less than what it takes to pay the bills. Gunsmithing or any other business is the same way. It's slightly different for me because a car gets the part that it gets and a pistolsmith has a variety of parts with which to use in any given application, but if I were a smith I would charge additional to install customer supplied parts. I hope my rambling helps someone, and if not sorry to waste the bandwidth. I for one want the smith of my choice to make a profit (fair) and stay in business so he's there when I need him. You get what you pay for anyway. That much I know is true and bear that in mind when making a purchase. There's a reason that a Lorcin is $75 and a Kimber is $750.

As for building a 1911, I have started on my first. I did not skimp on any parts, I chose what I felt and found out (through my research) to be the best. Parts alone on my 1911 will be over $1200, machine work I need done by a professional will be $300, and the finish will be from $100-$200. So without factoring in labor over $1600 tied up in a gun that I am building. My theory was that if I was going to spend hours after hours building a gun I wanted it to be the best I could do, and I figured quality parts always fit easier and last longer than low quality or cheap ones. The downside is that if I screw up a part it will cost more, but out of spec parts cost more time and may not ever be suitable or safe for that matter. Besides, my time is valuable so I would rather fit a trigger that takes 45-60 minutes versus one that takes two hours.

This is my first build, there are smiths that have been helpful and others that have discouraged me through their comments. That's okay though, everyone started as a novice at one point. I'm sure most of the top name smiths have screwed up a frame or slide, or trigger or whatever. Who knows, you could be the next big name. Or you could be the guy that mails George a box of partially filed parts with a blank check and a request to send it back in condition to fire live ammo :D

I say go for it! You don't have to buy the absolute best most expensive parts, but buy good ones: Wilson, Caspian, Brown, SVI, STI, etc. Pick and choose what suits you and don't be afraid to ask questions. Good luck.
 
#19 ·
parts kits

Ok first of all after my last post I want to appologize to Dave if you took offence to anything I said. I appologize.

I just got done talking to someone that said that there is a company that sells a parts kit. i thing the company is Sarco. I maybe wrong. I looked at it in a past issue of Shotgun News and their parts kit(which supposedly includes everything but the frame and slide)was around $100. In many posts you stress that getting a frame and slide together so they are machined to fit is a good idea but how much do these other small parts weigh on quality? Can't you only get so good af a Mainspring Housing pin?


Nate
 
#20 · (Edited)
I have stated that I was incorrect in assuming that most gunsmiths charge only their cost for parts. I believe in saving a buck if possible, but not at the expense of quality.

I have not given any bad advice. I have not said to get other than the best quality parts. I have recommended ways to ensure that you DON'T waste your time or money (Schuemann kit, Kunhausen books, gunsmith "apprenticeship"). All the other parts I have recommended are "top shelf".

Where did I say to be half-hearted or rush into anything? I simply was trying to help someone get started in the same way that others on the forum did for me when I started in on this stuff.

Here, take a look at my first STI project gun and my latest Caspian and tell me that they're "lame horses". If a bumbling dremel jockey like me can turn out stuff like that, then anyone can, and probably do better! That's why I say go for it, and "F" em' if someone says you can't. If people took Dave's wonderful advice, they'd never even try!

http://www.1911forum.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=72452#post72452
 

Attachments

#22 ·
hhsmiley

I didn't mean to sound argumentative in my assesment of charging retail or some type of mark-up for parts, I was just stating my take on it. My views on cost of goods and business in general have changed a great deal as my experiences with running a business have grown.

My statements were directed at all of the posts in general and no one specifically, I was just giving my viewpoints. I have looked at and viewed some of your posts and 1911 build projects and appreciate your work and the end products. In fact I am going to post my progress on my projects here because I felt that they may help, or at least encourage others to try it, like yours did for me.

I myself an just a jump in and do it guy, so that's what I'm doing.
 
#23 ·
Big Daddy, you did not sound argumnetative to me. No offense taken whatsoever. My previous post was not directed at your comments.

I think I put my foot in my mouth with my comments on cost vs. retail (wouldn't be the first time!). I wish I hadn't made that comment in conjunction with my other posts trying to help out Clipse. It makes everything else seem less credible.


If you have the time and money, who really cares how your stuff turns out as long as you enjoy the process, and learn from it.
I am not suggesting you produce crappy guns with this statement. I just mean if you produce something that works like it should, and doesn't look like hell, you should feel good about it. Some people will look down their nose at your gun even if the workmanship is fine if it's not made by one of the big names. That is the kind of stuff I'm saying to ignore. Even the true masters' first guns were not of the quality of their later creations. You must start somewhere. Not that you should cut corners, but your first time out is not going to the 1911 to end all 1911s.
Anyway, I just hate to see anyone be told, "you can't (or shouldn't) do such and such".
 
#24 ·
thanks again

I will deffinatly say this....creating this thread was about the best thing i could have done for my project. I have learned more than I would have ever thought to have. I do believe in the long run i will be happier with what I do buy for this project. I feel like a little kid at christmas. Now all I have to do is talk my fiance into letting me buy all this stuff without too much fuss.:D :D :D thank you again. I will let everyone know about my progress.

Nate

Oh and J taylor my email is : clipse@magiccablepc.com
 
#25 ·
Clipse,

i think I hear your message and I am responsing to your last question about the parts kits from SARCO. I believe one of the guys in these forums said they weren't too bad a quality. I would run a search on "Rock Island" and "SARCO".

My experience has been to search out some sources. Sure, there are lots of generic and milspec mainspring housings, magazine releases and slide stops for not a whole lot of money. These are pretty good starters. Gil Hebard sells Master Class parts which have served me very well. They are nice parts and about 1/2 to 1/3 the cost of other tool steel parts. I have used McCormick sears, hammers and extractors for years and haven't had any problems. Someone on one of these forums is selling a take off Kimber barrel and bushing. You would get a nice barrel and save some $$$ as long as you verified there was not other "fitting" done to it. I would be leary of used parts unless you get good vibes that the part hasn't been butchered or filed to death.
 
#26 ·
Well Trigger, how do they shoot? I remember Dave saying something about you not taking the ejector off before you fit the slide on the Caspian, and you decided to berate him, and then it turned out he was right, but you wouldn't acknowledge that. It seems you just want a handjob from other members of this board, and take offense when you don't get one. I don't see where Dave's post desuaded anyone, but rather tried to get Clipse to look at the big picture, and raise his expectations of what he could build. Keep wallowing around in the 'who cares what it is like crowd', some people do expect great things from their time and effort, some people do care how it turns out, and they are the one's that will eventually put forth the effort instead of slapping them together.
 
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