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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I emailed Tom at IDPA HQ requesting confirmation of this and he said it was true. No reason was given for the rule change.

OK, what happened, and why did it happen. Did somebody in CDP get their butts whipped by somebody with a 10mm and decide that the 10mm needs to be in ESP with the 9mm's and .38 Super's? Factory loaded 10mm from Winchester has a PF of 225, and Remington's is 207. That's just a little above the 125 PF required for ESP. Is that what they call a level playing field?

What about this scenario? The .40 S&W can be loaded to major quite easily. Put it in a 1911 frame and it will start giving the .45 some serious problems on the range. In trying to prevent the .40 from going to CDP, because it is just a short 10mm, they moved 10mm to ESP because it is a long .40.

Does anybody know why this was done?

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John

"And by the way, Mr. Speaker, The Second Amendment is not for killing ducks and leaving Huey and Dewey and Louie without an aunt and uncle. It is for hunting politicians like (in) Grozney and in 1776, when they take your independence away".
Robert K. Dornen, U.S. Congressman. 1995
 

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More stupid rules with no explaination. Isn't that why they developed IDPA? What the h*** is the difference what you shoot as long as it meets the power factor?

If you want to load the 40 at major or the 10 at minor then go ahead. The 40 is an ok cartridge but IMO it's no match for the 9's and 38 supers for the gamers. However the 10mm was the gamers cartridge for CDP. Maybe Bill got whooped by a 10mm.
 

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Isn't that the reason he started IDPA in the first place. He couldn't win in IPSC. I thought they had a two year no rules changes clause or something. I guess when you are the Dictator you can do as you damn well please. Oh well I don't have a 10mm anyway. I'm just tired of you guys gaming everything, Pretty soon us IPSC guys that come to shoot IDPA won't be harassed anymore!
 

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I have twice emailed IDPA with the "10mm in ESP?" question; the last time, after someone posted that IDPA had OK'd it. Both times, the response from IDPA was "no". I can see why IDPA put .45 and full-power 10 in one div, and 9/.40 in another. Shooting "10mm Lite" in ESP makes sense for someone who already (like me) has a Delta Elite, but doesn't want to buy a new .40 barrel and brass. It's not "gaming", it's economics. I shoot my .45 in CDP at 190pf, and want to shoot my 10 in ESP at 165pf. A guy can shoot a $3000 custom .40, but I can't shoot my relatively stock 10 loaded to 165pf? If they did, really, truthfully, change the rule; hurrah. I'm going to shoot my Delta in ESP on Saturday, and since I'm the Match Director, I'll rule that it's OK.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
RickB, Tom at HQ said the new rule would take effect upon the issuance of the new rule book.

My problem with it was if you wanted to shoot ESP, use any SA auto with a PF of 125 or greater. If CDP use a SA auto with a PF of 165 or greater. I have a single stack .40 with a new 10mm barrel on the way. My plan was to shoot both divisions with the same pistol with a change in barrel and spring required to move from one to the other. They should have given us at least a two year grace period like they did the revolver guys with 5 in barrels.

Since Bill only sells .45's, I believe that is more of the reason than anything else to limit CDP to .45's only.

Good luck shooting 10 Lite in ESP.


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John

"And by the way, Mr. Speaker, The Second Amendment is not for killing ducks and leaving Huey and Dewey and Louie without an aunt and uncle. It is for hunting politicians like (in) Grozney and in 1776, when they take your independence away".
Robert K. Dornen, U.S. Congressman. 1995
 

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Oh my! Oh MY!

Let's see if I can get this straight...the solution to the moon clipped revolver advantage was to make 625's cut an inch off their barrels in two years time.

Now the solution to the problem of large bore single action semi-autos having to compete with other large bore single action semi-autos at the same power factor is to dump the 10mms in with the sissy loads in ESP, effective immediately?

Does anyone else see a random pattern developing here?
 

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It's starting to remind me of restrictor plate racing in NASCAR!

You finally get a format (IDPA) that tests the validity of real defensive pistols and, when one or two start to dominate, you eliminate them. Pretty soon you will be reduced to using only the worst examples, in the name of a "level playing field" of course.

Hey, lets eliminate all the good shooters too! It's hard for me to win with them around...

Mikey
 

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There's more to this than meets the eye. Who knows, there might be some other systemic changes to go along with it.

The rulebook is undergoing some significant revisions and it's not just to clean up the poor grammar.

Claude
 

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I don't subscribe to the "IDPA list" so I am not as up to date on the latest talk as some might be.

What other changes have been rumored or confirmed - how long before they are published or announced?

The entry forms for the Nationals are already in! How many of us have entered the wrong division? How many of us have chosen the wrong (or soon-to-be illegal) equipment? I almost got caught up in the 5" 625 BS last year. Luckily I couldn't find one before the Nationals and saved myself the cost of a gun that would only be legal for 2 years! But that's no guarantee that my latest acquisition won't be next...

There never seems to be a REASON for these changes. What's the point in moving a caliber that naturally generates more PF than a 45 with factory loads to a division that was formed with the factory 9mm as the standard for the PF? Why outlaw a 5" revolver but not the 5" auto? What's next?

Mikey
 

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IDPA is apparently becoming more power factor-oriented than caliber-oriented, which is good. There are clearly people who want to compete in both ESP and CDP, and they can now do it with one gun, if it's a 10mm. It's a good move. IDPA blew it by not setting the pf in CDP at 185, which is out of reach of the minor calibers, but easily attainable with a .45 or 10.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
I sent the following to Tom at HQ this morning:

Tom,

I want to protest the rule change of moving 10mm to ESP. Please forward this to Bill or send me his email address or phone number so I can talk to him about it.

Here are some of my reasons for wanting to protest this action. Factory loaded 10mm from Winchester has a PF of 225, and Remington's is 207. That's just a little above the 125 PF required for ESP. The 10mm is ideally suited to be in CDP. By moving it to ESP the new ruling is essentially removing the possibility of anyone using factory ammo in competition. The whole premise of using power floors is to insure that the divisions are a more or less equal recoil impulse. The minimum power floors insure that shooters using factory ammo are not at any disadvantage with respect to those who use custom loaded ammo.

Isn't the point of IDPA to use production pistols and ammo in real life self defense scenarios? Isn't it suppose to be equipment neutral? If we do not want competitors with .45's in the same class as 9mm, why is 10mm, whick is more powerful than a .45, to be grouped with them?

What is the basis for making this rule change?

Best Regards,

John Forsyth
A02199
Do not know where this is going to end up, but at least I am going to give them my $0.02 worth.


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John

"And by the way, Mr. Speaker, The Second Amendment is not for killing ducks and leaving Huey and Dewey and Louie without an aunt and uncle. It is for hunting politicians like (in) Grozney and in 1776, when they take your independence away".
Robert K. Dornen, U.S. Congressman. 1995
 

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RickB,

Since the rule isn't issued as yet I can't be 100% certain, but I believe the change is:

10mm will be in the ESP Division INSTEAD of the CDP Division - not in addition to it. In other words, CDP would be the exclusive realm of the 45.

I would be delighted if they did EXACTLY what you said - allow ANY SA gun and load that makes 165 PF or more in CDP and ANY SA gun and load over 125 PF in ESP. I was just about to use a barrel certificate to get a 10mm barrel for my STI 40 so I could use the 10mm in CDP. Now I'll have to build a complete 45 top end! This makes twice in 2 years I've had to change equipment purchase plans just to keep up with the rule changes. So much for "stability".

Mikey
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Originally posted by Mikey:

10mm will be in the ESP Division INSTEAD of the CDP Division - not in addition to it. In other words, CDP would be the exclusive realm of the 45.
This is what I got from IDPA HQ earlier.

John,
This is correct.

Tom King
Member Service
IDPA
2232 CR 719
Berryville, AR 72616
870-545-3886
[email protected]


-----Original Message-----
From: Forsyth, John <[email protected]>
To: '[email protected]' <[email protected]>
Date: Monday, June 11, 2001 6:14 PM
Subject: ESP changes


>Tom,
>
>I was reading on the IDPA list that there is to be a rule change with
>respect to calibers allowed in ESP. The statement was that 10mm was to
move
>to ESP and that CDP was going to be .45 ACP only. Is this true?
>
>Best Regards,
>
>John Forsyth
>A02199
Just so there is no confusion here, 10mm is moving to ESP and CDP belongs to 45's only.




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John

"And by the way, Mr. Speaker, The Second Amendment is not for killing ducks and leaving Huey and Dewey and Louie without an aunt and uncle. It is for hunting politicians like (in) Grozney and in 1776, when they take your independence away".
Robert K. Dornen, U.S. Congressman. 1995
 

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Originally posted by Recon:
Isn't that the reason he started IDPA in the first place. He couldn't win in IPSC.


1985, the last year that Bill shot the USPSA Nationals he finished 3rd Overall. Prior to that he also represented the US at the World Shoot on the Gold and Silver Teams.


I thought they had a two year no rules changes clause or something. I guess when you are the Dictator you can do as you damn well please.

It's good to be the King.





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Tim Bacus
Bacus Custom
 

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I have a hunch the 10mm to ESP move is primarily being done to end the argument of the 40S&W to CDP crowd. You know, "My 40 is the same as a 10mm, I want to shoot CDP". Does the 10mm to ESP move make sense? No. But I have this to say about the IDPA BOD. I still prefer the direction their going to what USPSA has done in the last 10 years or so. I like to shoot mostly stock guns in somewhat realistic scenarios, so do most IDPA'ers. I don't think its defensive training. I don't think its better than IPSC or golf. We keep score and time each other, its a sport, and a very enjoyable one.

Later,
Keith
PS CDP is now the class for those guns that make big holes, I can live with that.
 

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Ok, I'll amend my position: If the rule change moves 10mm to ESP only, the rule sucks! Why would the fire-breathing 10mm be grouped with .40 and 9? That's crazy! IDPA could have made 10mm the perfect cartridge for competition; load it down for ESP, load it up for CDP. But noooooooo. Now we have a round that is almost useless for competition. Who's going to shoot a 200+pf 10 in ESP? As Johnny Cochrane (might have) said, "It does not make sense."
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Originally posted by RickB:
If the rule change moves 10mm to ESP only, the rule sucks! Why would the fire-breathing 10mm be grouped with .40 and 9? That's crazy!
That's what I thought the first time I heard it.

Responce from IDPA HQ:
John,
To address the BoD on the division change, the BoD requests a letter be
sent. The letter may be sent to the address below.

Tom King
Member Service
IDPA
2232 CR 719
Berryville, AR 72616
870-545-3886
[email protected]
Letter going out today.

------------------
John

"And by the way, Mr. Speaker, The Second Amendment is not for killing ducks and leaving Huey and Dewey and Louie without an aunt and uncle. It is for hunting politicians like (in) Grozney and in 1776, when they take your independence away".
Robert K. Dornen, U.S. Congressman. 1995

[This message has been edited by John Forsyth (edited 06-14-2001).]
 

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There is something in the A/C system at IDPA headquarters that is killing brain cells. I talked with Tom King yesterday about steel guiderods being illegal in Glocks for SSP. The "logic" they applied was ROs would have a difficult time telling the difference between steel and tungsten. I wonder what it would take to "boot" some of IDPA "leaders" out. I think some of those guys must have been shooting without ear muffs for too long. The concussion has rattled the common sense out of their heads.
 

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As to the 10mm issue, the stability of the rules, steel rods in Glocks...

Is anyone willing to start a grass roots campaign to stop these crappy changes?

I will check with our webmaster and see if we can get a thread on our IDPA page where people can go and post and "sign" with name and member number so that we can deliver it to IDPA HQ as a "petition" of sorts.

LMKWYT

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Good Shooting, MarkCO http://www.angelfire.com/co3/markcolo/
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Here is the text of the letter I sent to IDPA HQ and the BoD:

IDPA Board of Directors
C/O Tom King
Member Service
IDPA
2232 CR 719
Berryville, AR 72616

Dear Sirs,

It is my understanding that there are to be rule changes that will move the caliber of 10mm from the CDP division into the ESP division. And also that the CDP division will be for .45ACP chambered pistols only.

Here are some of my reasons for questioning this action. I have investigated factory new loaded 10mm ammunition from both Winchester and Remington and factory reloaded ammunition from Georgia Arms. The Winchester has a PF of 225000, the Remington's is 207000, and Georgia Arms is 198000. All are with 180gr bullets. That is far above the power floor of 125000 required for ESP. As a reference, Georgia Arms lists its 115gr 9mm at 1150 fps for a power factor of 132250.

By moving the 10mm caliber to ESP, the new ruling is essentially removing the possibility of anyone using factory 10mm ammunition in competition. The whole premise of using power floors is to insure that the divisions are a more or less equal recoil impulse. The minimum power floors insure that shooters using factory ammunition are not at any disadvantage with respect to those who use custom loaded ammunition. How can someone using a 10mm in a Colt Delta compete on an equal footing with someone using a Colt 1991 in 9mm?

The 10mm is ideally suited to be in CDP. Commercially available ammunition and the pistols that handle it, i.e., Colt 1911’s and other custom built 1911’s, are on a par with .45ACP chambered single action pistols. Winchester lists .45ACP with a 230gr FMJ at a muzzle velocity of 835 fps with a power factor of 192500.

Isn't the point of IDPA to use production pistols and ammo in real life self defense scenarios? Isn't it supposed to be equipment neutral? If we do not want competitors with .45's in the same class as 9mm, why is 10mm, which is more powerful than a .45 with factory ammunition, to be grouped with them?

I can only surmise why this ruling was made. It is quite easy to hand load the .40 S&W to the 165000 PF required in CDP. I know. I have a .40 S&W Caspian single stack and I am very competitive with it in ESP. By tuning my ammunition, I could reach the minimum power factor required in CDP with no signs of pressure. I imagine there has been some pressure to allow the use of .40 S&W chambered pistols into the CDP division.

The present rules for ESP and CDP work, .40 caliber and below with a minimum power factor of 125000 in ESP and .40 caliber and above with a power floor of 165000 in CDP. I would respectfully ask that the rule moving 10mm to ESP be modified to allow it in CDP as well as long as the minimum power factor ammunition is used.

Respectfully yours,

John A. Forsyth
A02199
There needs to be a way to have some input to the rules of the sport. If it continues down the path we are heading, I foresee a lot of problems ahead.

MarkCO, anything you could do would help. If you start it, I will sign it.

------------------
John

"And by the way, Mr. Speaker, The Second Amendment is not for killing ducks and leaving Huey and Dewey and Louie without an aunt and uncle. It is for hunting politicians like (in) Grozney and in 1776, when they take your independence away".
Robert K. Dornen, U.S. Congressman. 1995
 
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