10mm in IDPA now in ESP, etc

1949 Views 21 Replies 15 Participants Last post by SteveW, Jun 19, 2001

johnnybravo

Discussion Starter · Jun 15, 2001

This is in response to the topic started by John Forsyth. That thread one was getting kind of long, so I'm starting a new one.

John, let me say up front, that I agree with you on this excessive ruling issue.

I've been hearing about IDPA for a few years now. What I understood at that time, was that revolvers were given a fair shake, and you didn't need $3,000 worth of equipment just to be competetive (IPSC). I also thought that all autos were lumped together in one class. That sounded like a good idea, after all, on the street, the Bad Guy doesn't let you run home and get a bigger gun. You gotta use what you have.

I shot a classifier last summer, my first IDPA match, just to get a feel for the equipment needed. Well I liked it, althought I found out there were three classes of autos. IMHO, I think this is too many. I still think all autos should be lumped together. One of the things that also attracted me to IDPA was that I could actually understand the scoring system.

This winter I picked a Hi-Power out of the safe, got a mag holder, holster, worked up a load, and hit the ground running this spring, competing at some local (1.5 hour drive time) matches.

The thing is, I thought this would be a relatively economical type of shooting. I already had a few autos and revolvers. Now I found out my 5" 625 will be outlawed in IDPA, and I'll need 3 different TYPES of autos. It seems every time there's a rule change, I have to spend more to accomodate that change.

I've already procured two 4" revolvers since hearing of the 5" rule, just to make sure I'm covered when I start shooting in the revolver division, I'm covered for CDP and ESP. But now, if I want to compete in SSP, I have get another auto. Good Grief! So much for classifying in all four divisions! I thought the only thing I would have to get would be some leather! With all the equipment(guns) it's going to take, maybe IPSC was the better choice!

I think I'll make sure I don't buy any WILSON brand items, so I can save my dollars to accomodate the BOD's next rule change.

Thanks for hearing me out. You guys have some really valid issues here.

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johnnyb
A slow hit beats a fast miss

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tim38super

· #2 · Jun 15, 2001

Originally posted by johnnybravo:

I've already procured two 4" revolvers since hearing of the 5" rule, just to make sure I'm covered when I start shooting in the revolver division, I'm covered for CDP and ESP. But now, if I want to compete in SSP, I have get another auto. Good Grief! So much for classifying in all four divisions!

Well, you certainly lost me. How does moving 10MM 1911's from CDP to ESP have any effect on needing a diferent gun for SSP?

As for the revolver thing, one could certainly solve that problem for for less than the cost of a new gun, let alone two new guns. A new 4" barrel from Smith would run around $100 and labor for the change from most smiths would be in the $50 - $75 dollar range. Weigand charges $150 to cut your existing barrel to any length you want, crown it, recut the forcing cone and install his interchangeable front sight system, add to that the savings of not needing a new holster, speed loaders, pouches and the such and the investment is not really that big a deal.

Personally I think revolver shooters should have to play with the same restrictions the auto shooters have, if it fits in the box it's good, if it doesn't fit it's not good. I would make the allowence that cylinder diameter would not count as part of box measurement.

Looking forward to your comments.

Tim

johnnybravo

Discussion Starter · #3 · Jun 15, 2001

Well, I guess I wasn't completely clear. John's gripe is the 10mm rule change, My gripe is the three classes of auto thing. I understand that last year's national IDPA champion won with a Beretta 92. That tells me it's not the type of gun you shoot, so much as the guy shooting it.

To clarify my opinion: I think all autos should be in the same division. I can live with 10 rounds max per magazine.

As for the revolver thing: I found a 4" 686 this winter, new, and dirt cheap. I was wanting one anyway. A month or so later I found a 4" 625, barely used, and dirt cheap.
The rule change was probably an added incentive to not pass up these deals.
I WAS, however, looking forward to using the 5" 625 in IDPA as I really like that frame/barrel configuration.

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johnnyb
A slow hit beats a fast miss

Beverly McCord

· #4 · Jun 15, 2001

There's an international element to the 10mm to ESP move, too. Restricting CDP to .45 only elimates CDP as a division entirely for a lot of our shooting friends to the south, who are not allowed to own that "military" caliber.

Unless there is a compelling reason for this change in the new rule book (like Claude suggests, something systematic) I suspect our club will probably ignore this rule when our South American friends show up with their 10mms, and let them shoot in CDP anyway and not force them to compete on an unequal basis with the wimp loads.

Mikey

· #5 · Jun 16, 2001

I have now seen the new rule book and, as Claude alluded to, there are some changes that appear to be systemic (and perhaps systematic as well). There are some changes afoot that would preclude a club from tacitly ignoring a rule change (like the 10mm rule) and remaining an IDPA club. Some of the choices and interpretations we have made as competitors and clubs may put us at odds with the IDPA as defined in the new rules. A mechanism is being formulated that will bring consistency and compliance to the forefront of every IDPA club's activities.

While I admit that some rule changes have been needed in the past, and I would lobby for some additional changes in the future, I have also seen some changes that appear to be subjective in motive and effect. I won't go so far as to say that changes have been made specifically to enhance the marketability of products manufactured or sold by prominent IDPA members but one could come to that deduction and have at least circumstantial evidence to support the notion.

The IDPA is not a "member run" organization. In most cases, the general membership is not even consulted or polled about potential changes to the rules prior to implementation. It is run by the Board of Directors made up of the Founding Fathers of IDPA and is pretty much a "take-it-or-leave-it" proposition. They have developed a game and, if you want to play, you will play by their rules. Otherwise you are welcome to play some other game run by some other group.

When the new rule book is in your hands I believe you will see that this is the current state and climate of the IDPA. It may be decision time for some clubs and members. I get the distinct impression, from what I've seen, that disagreement is not an option - at least not one that will get you anywhere.

Mikey

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Beverly McCord

· #6 · Jun 16, 2001

Whether or not HQ wants to admit it, IDPA is indeed a member-run organization. HQ needs members far more than the members need someplace to send dues and a place from we receive rulings with no reasonable rationalization.

A LOT of people have been running practical shooting matches since before IDPA was ever conceived. I dare say they will continue, especially in a CCW state such as Texas where a carry 10mm is not an oddity.

Affiliation with an organization is nice, but not nearly as necessary to shooters as it is to the organizers.

Kent Dorfman

· #7 · Jun 16, 2001

And IDPA shooters say IPSC is screwed up... At least I do.

I don’t mind the move of the ten to ESP. The more manly men out there in my class shooting a real caliber and not a game gun, is good for my fragile little ego. Now I can build another gun for the new 45 ACP class. No reason to call it CDP anymore.

See, the move is good. It doesn’t force me to build another gun, it makes me want to.

Maybe a STI single stack in 45. That or a fat STI...

Tom
AF Shooting Team

MarkCO

· #8 · Jun 17, 2001

If what Mikey says is in fact as bleak as it seems, ol Bill may have the income to his retirement fund shorted drastically. I agree with Bev and if that is the way they want it, it won't take long for another org to shoot off of IDPA's disenfranchised shooters. They had better think long and hard before they try to "mandate" this group.

Course design was at the heart of IDPA to start with, and 2 of the 3 major matches I have shot had, well, worn out IPSC stages in them with little creativity. Stability of the rules was another foundational issue, and that is out the window. I still have not seen a rational reason presented to move 10mm into ESP from CDP that does not have an element of impropriety. No-one tried to hide that fact that IDPA was a for profit private entity, but when the customers no longer like the product, they talk with DOLLARS going elsewhere.

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Good Shooting, MarkCO http://www.angelfire.com/co3/markcolo/

Joe D

· #9 · Jun 17, 2001

Here is the response to the e-mail I sent to IDPA. "To suggest a change or make a complaint to the BoD,the BoD requests a letter."
Tom King
Pardon my stupidity, but I thought an e-mail was a letter. I guess the "Lords of Wisdom" on the BoD are not Internet active. I think we need to send them a message. Without members there is no IDPA.

Scooter

· #10 · Jun 18, 2001

IDPA is far more screwed up than IPSC rule wise.

From the rule book: "The goal is to compete with 'service type' ammunition, not light target ammunition, therefore the following minimum power floors will be in effect."

Well, 40 S&W easily and safely make the 165 powerfactor. Yet it belongs in SSP and ESP. You can load them down to 125 pf and still be legal. Shouldn't that constitute as a failure to do right? 40 at 125 pf is a light target load, that would be gaming it. It's not tactical to shoot light loads, as some would say.

I'm still bitter about the HK P7's being moved from SSP to ESP. They're just jealous it's beating those plastic dishwasher safe Glocks.

Notice on the cover of the rule book, "The Real Practical Shooting Sport." How practical is it if you can only do it the IDPA way.

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kahana

· #11 · Jun 18, 2001

Scooter,

When did the P7 get bumped out of SSP ??

That I really don't understand (not that I understand the 10mm to ESP move either)......
They must consider the P7 a single action pistol.

Where do other calibers end up ?? Like the .400 Corbon etc......it's obvious the power floor isn't the determining factor (hey maybe that's why they don't call it a "power factor"

)

johnnyb,

One thing to remember is this is still a shooting sport. One thing that keeps people interested is the prospect of winning or placing in the top of their group. For IDPA, or any group to grow you have to attract new shooters and then get people to come back. Splitting the autos into 3 divisions increases everyone's chance of taking home a wall hanger, or decoration for the mantle. I've seen grown men in thier 40's or 50's that decided to give it a go then later win that first piece of wood and get that ear to ear......

laters

gr

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ESPGamerShark

· #12 · Jun 18, 2001

Gentlemen and ladies

I think you protest to much. I have read and competed under both IDPA and USPSA,(Which conducts IPSC in the U.S.)rulebooks. The very first thing that becomes apparent is that they were both written by humans!!! I beleive that rulebook writers in general have a very difficult unappreciated job. How would you like to work many long tedious hours on something then have someone with 1/100 of your experience say "that sucks". Think about it and flame on.

Later,
Keith

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John Forsyth

· #13 · Jun 18, 2001

Originally posted by kahana:
Where do other calibers end up ?? Like the .400 Corbon etc....

The new rule book is up on the IDPA web site. Per the new rule book:

Handguns permitted for ENHANCED SERVICE PISTOL division must be Single Action or selective SA/DA and be of 9mm (9x19), (9x21), (9x23), .38 Super, .357 Sig, .40 S&W, .41 AE, 10mm Norma, .400 Cor-Bon....

Handguns permitted for the CUSTOM DEFENSIVE PISTOL division must be .45 ACP caliber....

I guess if you are shooting a .460 Roland or a .50AE you must be in Enhanced, that is, even if they will allow you to shoot it.

Notice the rule says must be.

------------------
John

"And by the way, Mr. Speaker, The Second Amendment is not for killing ducks and leaving Huey and Dewey and Louie without an aunt and uncle. It is for hunting politicians like (in) Grozney and in 1776, when they take your independence away".
Robert K. Dornen, U.S. Congressman. 1995

[This message has been edited by John Forsyth (edited 06-18-2001).]

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kahana

· #14 · Jun 18, 2001

5

ESP-G-S

No flame here...

...just trying to understand what's going on. I think for most people change is a little easier to swallow when you know the reasoning behind it.

I think most people are concerned that once this gets started it will just lead to more changes down the line. One thing that IDPA emphasized was rule stability.

I'm not trying to start the IPSC vs IDPA thing (again) as I stay out of that fray, I just show up to shoot and have fun

(as you know) and enjoy both for what they are. Give me the rules and let's shoot......

I recognize the BOD has a tough job and they'll never make everyone happy, but it's tough to figure out what direction they are going. Is it power floor or bullet diameter ?? The past suggested power floor, this seems to say diameter.......

Hope you make it on the 24th

laters

gr

[This message has been edited by kahana (edited 06-18-2001).]

ah.......if I could only type it right the first time

[This message has been edited by kahana (edited 06-18-2001).]

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Ricky T

· #15 · Jun 18, 2001

I don't understand what the squabbling is all about. Shoot whatever you want in whatever division that it belongs. I thought you're in this to practice marksmanship, gunhandling skills and for the comraderie. Or you're worried about the overall standing and match placement. Does it hurt your ego that badly? Think about it folks. Lighten up.

John Forsyth

· #16 · Jun 18, 2001

Originally posted by Ricky T:
I don't understand what the squabbling is all about. Shoot whatever you want in whatever division that it belongs. I thought you're in this to practice marksmanship, gunhandling skills and for the comraderie. Or you're worried about the overall standing and match placement. Does it hurt your ego that badly? Think about it folks. Lighten up.

It did not hurt my ego, but it did/does have an effect on my wallet. Here I am all ready to go to 10mm, I have a Caspian based single stack, reloading equipment, magazines, everything I need. I am ready to have one pistol for both ESP (.40 S&W) and CDP (10mm) divisions and they change the rules.

What if they had said, "All full clip revolvers, i.e. S&W 625's, are for competition only and are illegal as of now."

Would you have been OK with that?

------------------
John

"And by the way, Mr. Speaker, The Second Amendment is not for killing ducks and leaving Huey and Dewey and Louie without an aunt and uncle. It is for hunting politicians like (in) Grozney and in 1776, when they take your independence away".
Robert K. Dornen, U.S. Congressman. 1995

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Ricky T

· #17 · Jun 18, 2001

Originally posted by John Forsyth:
It did not hurt my ego, but it did/does have an effect on my wallet. Here I am all ready to go to 10mm, I have a Caspian based single stack, reloading equipment, magazines, everything I need. I am ready to have one pistol for both ESP (.40 S&W) and CDP (10mm) divisions and they change the rules.

What if they had said, "All full clip revolvers, i.e. S&W 625's, are for competition only and are illegal as of now."

Would you have been OK with that?

I too shoot one gun in multiple division. I use a Glock 19 in SSP and ESP. Yes I am at a disadvantage when using the G19 in ESP while most folks (you know who) shoot 1911 pistols. But I don't whine.
And it's all right with me if they outlaw moonclips and 625 (including Mountain Guns). I can use a 3" model 10.

Since we're in the mood to ban guns, we need to ban those 610/.40S&W also. And no plastic holsters !

[This message has been edited by Ricky T (edited 06-18-2001).]

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vincent

· #18 · Jun 18, 2001

Looking at the new rulebook I was also suprised to see that placing a magazine in a shirt pocket after a Tac-Load was also no longer allowed. This seems like an odd ruling. Why would a vest pocket be OK and a shirt pocket not?

TACTICAL LOAD: <<SNIP, SNIP>> To be in the “spirit” of the stage, the shooter must retain the magazine in one of the following ways PRIOR to the firing of the first shot after a tactical load: pants pocket, vest pocket, jacket pocket, waistband or magazine pouch. Using specially designed pockets, shirt pockets or holding the magazine in the hand or teeth is NOT permitted. "

Mikey

· #19 · Jun 18, 2001

Originally posted by Ricky T:
Since we're in the mood to ban guns, we need to ban those 610/.40S&W also. And no plastic holsters !

Now wait just a dang minute there Slant-Pro. I just bought that 610 because they already crapped on my plans for a 5" 625!! And I can't help it if I ALREADY had some gamer 40 loads for my STI that just happen to fit in the 610 chambers...And my plastic holster has "tactical" in the name so it's got to be OK with the IDPA, doesn't it?? And I don't care so much about winning...I just hate to get beat!

Mikey

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Ricky T

· #20 · Jun 19, 2001

Originally posted by Mikey:
Now wait just a dang minute there Slant-Pro. I just bought that 610 because they already crapped on my plans for a 5" 625!! And I can't help it if I ALREADY had some gamer 40 loads for my STI that just happen to fit in the 610 chambers...And my plastic holster has "tactical" in the name so it's got to be OK with the IDPA, doesn't it?? And I don't care so much about winning...I just hate to get beat!

Mikey

Listen up Linguine Challenged Hillbilly:
That barbecue grease in that plastic holster helped you get that 52 ounch rotatin' boat anchor out so fast is why I think it should be outlawed. And your cheater loads that you use, they ought to chrono that thing sometimes. I want to know how fast that magnum primed 10mm short actually goes. Now I know you don't carry that horse pistol. Admit it.

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"If she can cook chicken, she suits me to a T."
Ray Charles

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