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10MM when did the 10MM cartridge come along and how does it compare to the .45 in stopping power, I remember reading that the FBI was going to use it did they and how did it work out for them?

thanks,
greg
 

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check out glocktalk.com and the 10 ring club. Do a search and you will find tons of info on it.

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I read somewhere that the 10mm produced recoil that was excessive for many agents to handle and it was done away with and replaced with the mild mannered 40. Essentially the same round but shorter and slower.
 

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Originally posted by BKC45ACP:
I read somewhere that the 10mm produced recoil that was excessive for many agents to handle and it was done away with and replaced with the mild mannered 40. Essentially the same round but shorter and slower.
Negative. The replacement had much more to do with the gun...and internal politics than it had to do with recoil.

Ballistically, the 10mm round used in the pistols was and is (yes there are some still in use) virtually the same as the current crop of .40s.
 

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understood, sounds more like the reason to me. Excessive recoil sounded like b.s. The recoil isn't really that bad.
 

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The FBI dropped the 10mm for a combination of things. In full-power (200gr @ 1200fps) the 10mm was too much for qualification, and scores suffered. In full-power, S&W was not going to make an aluminum-framed 10mm. (Plus, who is going to try and carry a full-size all stainless pistol under a Brooks Brothers suit?)

The FBI then spec'ed a 10mm Lite, a 180 at 1050 fps, to allow all agents to qualify. The extra space left in the case at that power level allowed ballistic angineers to shrink the OAL and fit the new (40 S&W) cartridge into 9mm-framed pistols.

You might snicker at the FBI being concerned over getting agents to qualify, but they had just had their heads handed to them in a court case concerning firearms qualification and how the previous standards had disqualified otherwise capable trainees. Without a pistol, caliber and training methods that didn't discriminate, the FBI would have been in front of the same Judge. Guess what effect that would have had on careers?
 

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Originally posted by Patrick Sweeney:
The FBI dropped the 10mm for a combination of things. In full-power (200gr @ 1200fps) the 10mm was too much for qualification, and scores suffered. In full-power, S&W was not going to make an aluminum-framed 10mm. (Plus, who is going to try and carry a full-size all stainless pistol under a Brooks Brothers suit?)
Couple of things here...
1) The round was downloaded not because of recoil, but rather to pass the exhaustive ballistic protocol. The important part of that protocol was the depth of penetration. By pushing it out at 200fps, the bullet (using the period technology) was expanding too rapidly to get to the depth needed.
2) The pistol that was adopted was not aluminum framed, so that was never a consideration.
3) Plenty of Agents did and some still do wear the full size stainless 10mm gun under their "Brooks Brothers" suit. For that matter, many do carry their full size, steel framed 1911s under those same "suits".

Originally posted by Patrick Sweeney:
The FBI then spec'ed a 10mm Lite, a 180 at 1050 fps, to allow all agents to qualify. The extra space left in the case at that power level allowed ballistic angineers to shrink the OAL and fit the new (40 S&W) cartridge into 9mm-framed pistols.
1) The specs were as I previously stated for the reasons that were previously stated not to allow problem shooter to qualify.
2) S&W did realize that they could get the same ballistics out of a shorter case, thus the .40S&W...that perfectly matched the required ballisics of the 10mm...in a 9mm frame size gun.

Originally posted by Patrick Sweeney:
You might snicker at the FBI being concerned over getting agents to qualify, but they had just had their heads handed to them in a court case concerning firearms qualification and how the previous standards had disqualified otherwise capable trainees. Without a pistol, caliber and training methods that didn't discriminate, the FBI would have been in front of the same Judge. Guess what effect that would have had on careers?
Heads handed to them because...their training standards were too high? Well if that was true, the issue weapon might have been a Montblanc pen that could be used to score one's own target. Isn't it sad that the standard is lowered to the lowest common demoninator...rather than the reverse? That is, having the lowest common denominator rise up to meet the higher standard.


[This message has been edited by LW McVay (edited 10-12-2001).]
 
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I read somewhere that the 10mm produced recoil that was excessive for many agents to handle and it was done away with and replaced with the mild mannered 40. Essentially the same round but shorter and slower.
Recoil may have been part of the reason to switch to 40 S&W but the FBI download addressed that. It seems that 10mm handguns are too large for many law enforcement folks with smaller hands, to handle. The 40s are the size of 9mm guns.
 

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In regards to 10mm vs .45, the 10mm has more energy, higher velocity. I dont like the term "stopping power" because I cant define it. If you compare 10mm vs .45super, super wins in my opinion due to heavy bullets than the 10mm. I hunt with .45super 255gn buffalo bore. Heaviest bullet I've seen for 10mm is 220gn. I dont own a 10mm so there may be something I havent hesrd of.
I all honesty, 10mm vs .45super are pretty darn close.
 

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Nineteen year old thread?
 

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In regards to 10mm vs .45, the 10mm has more energy, higher velocity. I dont like the term "stopping power" because I cant define it. If you compare 10mm vs .45super, super wins in my opinion due to heavy bullets than the 10mm. I hunt with .45super 255gn buffalo bore. Heaviest bullet I've seen for 10mm is 220gn. I dont own a 10mm so there may be something I havent hesrd of.
I all honesty, 10mm vs .45super are pretty darn close.
No .45super here; so I cannot compare them. But the recoil of 10mm feels noticeably heftier and sharper than most other handgun rounds of my experience. Pretty heavy bullet and going fast. From the same kind of pistol, 10mm is more brisk and stout than .38super. Shooting .40S&W, already brisk and fairly stout, is reasonably comfortable for me. From the same exact pistol* other than - swapping barrel, recoil spring(s), if necessary magazine and shoot 10mm: recoil is more. Not drastically; but noticeably.

When hunting feral hogs, I like to have a substantial argument to hand should a boar, or worse a sow, dispute my passage. My host this weekend said his farm has been invaded by feral hogs; so fixing to dispute any hogs met with an opening argument in .308Win; any closing arguments in 10mm.
 

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Nineteen year old thread?
sigh .. well, this is one that I don't see it makes much difference to my post. Hopefully there was something useful to '45ofcourse' in it. When I saw this:

"[This message has been edited by LW McVay ..."

... thought: "Odd, must be a feature of the new site that when a moderator edits, it shows details, not just 'edited'. And apparently didn't read all the way to the end of the line to see:

"... (edited 10-12-2001).]"

Besides, as a computer programmer I say: putting the high order number last is just wrong.
\ -:
 

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What is amusing about this topic is that since it was started, history has repeated itself and FeeBee has gone from the 10mm to the .40, and now to the Wonder-9 due to internal politics. I fully expect them to eventually move to the "powerful" .380 due to the girls and girly-men having too much trouble qualifying w/ the "high-recoil" 9.
 

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The part of the story that's usually ignored, is that 10mm was intended as a service pistol cartridge, with somewhat better ballistics than .45 ACP, but its appearance as a "magnum" cartridge was the result of confusion and mistakes by the designer and manufacturer. It's essentially the same story as the .41 Magnum, just twenty years later, and in auto pistol form.
When handloaders use 200 grains at 1200fps at a starting point for load development, they're ignoring the intent was [email protected], and 1200fps is already the "magnum" loading.
 
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The part of the story that's usually ignored, is that 10mm was intended as a service pistol cartridge, with somewhat better ballistics than .45 ACP, but its appearance as a "magnum" cartridge was the result of confusion and mistakes by the designer and manufacturer. It's essentially the same story as the .41 Magnum, just twenty years later, and in auto pistol form.
When handloaders use 200 grains at 1200fps at a starting point for load development, they're ignoring the intent was [email protected], and 1200fps is already the "magnum" loading.
Yep:
But when you slam some Buffalo Bore in it
Heavy 10mm Ammo - 180 gr. Jacketed Hollow Point - J.H.P. (1,350fps/M.E. 728 ft. lbs.)
HEAVY 10MM OUTDOORSMAN - 220 gr. Hard Cast - FN (1,200 fps/ME 703 ft. lbs.)
Better hang on
(y)
 

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Yep:
But when you slam some Buffalo Bore in it
Heavy 10mm Ammo - 180 gr. Jacketed Hollow Point - J.H.P. (1,350fps/M.E. 728 ft. lbs.)
HEAVY 10MM OUTDOORSMAN - 220 gr. Hard Cast - FN (1,200 fps/ME 703 ft. lbs.)
Better hang on
(y)
Yes, I like dual purpose guns...defense in town and in the mountains. My model 58 S&W (the .41 cop gun) provided that for some time. Wish I had not sold it. I could shoot that N frame DA! Now, the Glock 20 fills that role. Hot "penetrators" for bear country, moderate hollow points for social work. My modified first gen Delta is for fun and competition. Boy is it easy to shoot fast and well.
 

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Yes, I like dual purpose guns...defense in town and in the mountains. My model 58 S&W (the .41 cop gun) provided that for some time. Wish I had not sold it. I could shoot that N frame DA! Now, the Glock 20 fills that role. Hot "penetrators" for bear country, moderate hollow points for social work. My modified first gen Delta is for fun and competition. Boy is it easy to shoot fast and well.
Yup, I also carry a Glock 20 around town concealed, but also open carry it in woods and in the mountains loaded with some Underwood 220gr hardcast rounds for bear / cougar encounters.

I also have an XDM in 10MM that likes the Underwood 220gr hardcast rounds. I may start to carry it if I find a good solid holster for an open carry woods pistol.
 

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Yup, I also carry a Glock 20 around town concealed, but also open carry it in woods and in the mountains loaded with some Underwood 220gr hardcast rounds for bear / cougar encounters.

I also have an XDM in 10MM that likes the Underwood 220gr hardcast rounds. I may start to carry it if I find a good solid holster for an open carry woods pistol.
Have you seen the reports on the Lehigh rounds that Underwood is loading?

Xtreme Defense, Controlled Fracturing, Xtreme Penetrator.

OW, OW, OW!
10mm Auto Ammo | Handgun Ammo | Shop Now and Save on 10mm Ammo
 
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