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1911 dynamics 2

4802 Views 29 Replies 7 Participants Last post by  10ring
Hello again, I'm sure most of you have visited a german site specialized in high speed photography: http://www.kurzzeit.com/index_e.htm
They have very good pictures and slow motion films with a front view of a 45 ACP 1911 (actually a SPS, spanish clone of the STI / SVI, fitted with a 16 lbs. recoil spring and a heavy barrel) at the moment of firing, and also a side close view of a compensated Tanfoglio 38 Super.
You can download these films and study them frame by frame, the speed is 1000 frames per second and 2000 FPS. Werner Mehl, the owner of this company, has kindly sent me another film with a side view of the 1911 cycle. Attached is this high speed film of the SPS 45, the speed is 1000 frames per second. He reckons this speed is still not enough to get full a understanding, and promises will have some tapes at 10,000 FPS next year, with new equipment he is developing.
There is so much to learn from a film like this if you really have a good understanding of the mechanism and the time to dissect it bit by bit.
I’ve sutdied the films frame by frame and they correlate pretty well with the theory:
Hammer fall time is not insignificant in relation to the other events, even with a competition hammer and tuned up pistol like this. It is about four or five times barrel time, and about 2 times slide/barrel locked time.
After the hammer hits the primer the bullet exits the case (theoretically the moment of highest pressure) and sends a burst of air, dust and smoke (unburned powder and accumulated debris?) in front of the bullet, out of the barrel.
The slide and barrel recoil a little bit before bullet exit and remain locked. This is not seen very well in this side view, but it is readily seen in on the tape wmsps01 - front view. The pistol moves very little in the hand, obviously little recoil is felt.
The slide and barrel keep on recoiling linearly together a very small distance after the bullet exit and muzzle blast, at this point the hand still feels very little recoil. About this point the slide reaches its maximun speed, and decelerates very little during its rearward travel.
At the point of unlocking the hand feels just a fraction of the recoil and torque, the barrel lower lugs are hitting the frame.
The spent case is ejected before the end of the rearward travel, but it is still dancing around the ejection window at the moment of maximum rear travel (this depend on the ejector lenght).
The slide is not stoped by the recoil spring, but it literally hits the frame at the end of its rearward race. This is the point at which most of the recoil is felt, and the gun torques upwards and also pushes back on the hand.
The slide remains still for a moment at the end of the rearward stroke, and slowly acelerates forward.
The slide picks up a round and feeds it in the ramp. The round changes its angle while feeding into the chamber and engaging the extractor. This "accommodation" movement of the round (more important than its weight) could easily mean some loss of energy and forward aceleration of the slide if the ramp is not well polished and contoured and extractor well adjusted.
The link cams the barrel up, and the upper lugs engage the slide (actually it is like a small impact). The hand feels this forward push and the muzzle comes down a bit.
I'm not too sure, but I've been looking closely at the video, and sequence is like this:
The hammer time is about 4-5 miliseconds.
Barrel time is about 1 milisecond.
Slide and barrel velocity at the moment the bullet exits is only about 5 fps and still accelerating backwards. Slide and barrel are locked together and recoil only a very small distance at this point.
Maximum slide and barrel velocity is at about .6" of recoil travel (they have just unlocked now) and is about 17.7 fps in this gun, firing a 45 ACP major factor ball ammo, with heavy barrel and 16 lbs. spring. The slide begins to decelerate constantly from this point on. Remember we guesstimated 20 fps?
About ten miliseconds after hitting the primer the slide velocity still travels at about 15.9 fps, and is almost at the end of its rearward travel.
About 13-14 miliseconds after ignition the slide stops, hitting the frame.
Average velocity for its rearward travel is about 13.7 fps.
Very little slide movement for about 3-4 miliseconds after this point, then slowly the slide starts forward.
At about 42 miliseconds after ignition the slide hits the round in the magazine.
At 50 miliseconds after ignition the slide is starts to push the round into the chamber.
At 69 miliseconds slide and barrel lock forward completely.
At 72 miliseconds end of forward cycle.
Average velocity of forward slide travel is only 3.2 fps!! (we guesstimated 3.33 fps)
The total cycle time in this gun, not counting hammer time, is 72 miliseconds. If you had sear trouble you'll be shooting at a rate of 830 rpm.
Most probably cycle time would be faster and slide velocity higher in a normal 1911 with a lighter barrel. Also this is a competition gun with a tighly fitted barrel, most probably a normal 1911 would be even closer to our previous estimate.
All these number correlate very well with mathematical model, the dominating principle here is equilibrium of momentum.
Notice that we don’t confirm exactly the initial 0.11" recoil of barrel and slide at the moment of bullet exit (but we can see some small movement), and we can also get a pretty estimation for slide/barrel velocity.
Of course this is just a theoretical exercise to see if we can identify and measure somehow (at least arriving at a ballpark value) the basics that govern 1911 dynamics, things are much more complicated in the real world.
We got pretty close with just basic physics, don’t you think?
As a side note, in a previous discussion on this forum somebody mentioned Kuhnhaussen's explanation of the initial part of the 1911 cycle. I have not read his books, but from the quotes mentioned here apparently he thinks that the slide and barrel are somehow in a static position while the bullet is moving in the barrel, and that they only start moving backwards when the bullet exits due to “residual pressure”. This is impossible, as equilibrium of momentum dictates that the slide/barrel must be moving backwards (albeit at a much slower velocity due to their larger mass) while the bullet is moving forward.
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Hello Again, TiroFijo,

Thanks for the details !!!

I downloaded the *.zip movie files, but they would not not inzip.... Is that some non standard format ??


Regards
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Hola SouthGun, I did not had trouble with the .zip movie files, perhaps you could ask Werner Mehl, he sent me the best side view slow motion film of a 1911 that I know of.
Kool Stuff

Now if we can get some film of a plated gun that does not funtion, and watch what it does.
and a loose fitting barrel hood. see if the slide hesitates as the play takes up.

And a marker to see how far the slide travels as the bullet leavs the barrel. and and ....

geo ><>
Is the side view of the 1911 cycle on the web site somewhere??

I would like to see it.

I was the person who referenced Kuhnhausen and while your simplified equilibrium of momentum explanation makes sense, it does not take into effect the pressurized lock of the barrel to the slide via the locking lugs until the bullet leaves the barrel.

Basically what I am saying is (like last time), lets not get into this discussion until you can provide the frame by frame sequence showing the bullet leaving the barrel with the enough of the slide in view to see its movement. If it is available, then please point me to it.

Until that time, you can provide all of the simplified physics you want but you are completely missing to point on some very basic firearms design.

Thanks
After watching all of them, the "sps37_2" is a particularly good example, it appears that the slide does NOT move until smoke appears out the front of the barrel. Same in 007tanf in that the slide does not move until the flash comes out of the compensator.

That would indicate to me that the bullet has already left the barrel before the slide and frame unlock. This would also imply that the rearward force of the shell casing on the slide is countered by the forward push of the slug in the rifling of the bore as further evidenced by the neutrality of the pistols after the hammer falls but before the bullet exits the bore. Once the bullet exits, all pressure on the gun is rearward, thereby operating the slide and pushing the gun rearward in the hands.



[This message has been edited by James P (edited 10-31-2001).]
Please go to the film wmsps01.zip from the site, number six from top. If you look closely, frame by frame, you'll see that at the moment of firing a very small cloud of smoke leaves the barrel, but the bullet still is inside the barrel. You'll also notice that the slides moves just a little back at this moment. This is not too difficult to notice, because for this type of film very powerful lights are needed, and in the frame just prior to this one you'll see the reflection of light on the flats of the front of the slide and recoil plug and the bull barrel all in the same plane (if you know this gun you'll see what I mean). When the small cloud of smoke ahead of the bullet leaves the barrel you can see that the slide has moved a little to the back because now some shadow is showing in the edges of the front of this full lenght slide. Remember we are using very powerful lights, and the angles of the gun and muzzle have not changed.
George, of course you realize I don't know exactly how much the slide is moving back at the exact moment the bullet leaves the barrel, but it does move back some. As I mentioned above, I also have another film that Werner Mehl sent me with a side view that allows the detailed dissection frame by frame (it does not show this slide movement we are discussing, with this film speed we were just lucky to catch this moment with wsmsp01).
About the quality of this wmsps01 film: "He (WM)reckons this speed is still not enough to get full a understanding, and promises will have some tapes at 10,000 FPS next year, with new equipment he is developing."
Remember This is just an oversimplified model, nothing more. With new films probably I'll be able to show better that the earth is not flat
.
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You may be using something different to view these than I but on the frame where I see smoke, in the frame immediately preceding, you can see the bullet about to leave the barrel (copper color) with no smoke in front of it and NO slide movement.

It is quite possible that the burning powder passes the bullet immediately after leaving the barrel since is its lighter weight allows it to accelerate around the projectile. Obviously, the air resistance/weight/momentum is what allows the bullet to leave the smoke behind.

You may think you are trying to convince me the world is round and I feel like I am trying to make a blind man see.

Good luck on getting the pictures meeting the criteria I asked for as they are going to prove to you that the world just might be flat. Don't be surprised when you can see the tip of the nose of the bullet peeking out of the end of the barrel and the slide is still locked fully forward. The clue is the "locking" lugs.

Get a blowback action pistol and your theory will be correct.

EDIT: all kidding and debating aside, thanks for the link...GOOD STUFF!!

[This message has been edited by James P (edited 10-31-2001).]
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JamesP, all joking aside, I'm glad you liked the site,this thread is just a friendly debate and I really like your posts in this forum.


[This message has been edited by TiroFijo (edited 10-31-2001).]
Hi TiroFijo, another "Super Duty" post, keep them coming!


------------------
Metal Smith

The only thing I know for sure is what I can measure!
NRA Life Member
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The feeling is mutual Tiro and actually, I am even more enthused about having someone to do the investigative work for me!!!
OK guys, I'm sure all of you have seen the ever popular gunzine covers with the picture of the bullet just after exiting the muzzle of the pistol. Let's get one of these pictures where the bullet is really close to the muzzle, let's say about 1.5" (I've seen them even closer).
You'll notice that the slide and barrel of the 1911 (or similar Browning style pistol) are still locked together and have moved a bit back, say 0.12".
If my above mentioned explanation is correct, this is just as it should be (remember the slide/barrel are moving back at 20 fps.)
But let's say that the barrel and slide are still until the bullet leaves the muzzle, and only then start to recoil.
The velocity of the bullet is 830 fps.
The average velocity of the slide would be:
0.12" / 1.5" * 830fps = 66.4 fps
Now, the slide velocity was zero when the bullet exited, so the final velocity at the end of this 0.12" has to be much higher for the average velocity to be 66.4 fps. Assuming a linear acceleration the velocity would be 66.4*2 = 132.8 fps
Obviously something is very wrong, because now the momentum of the slide/barrel is much bigger than that of the bullet, and we know that M*S = m*s for any period of time (conservation of momentum).
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Hi TiroFijo,
OK, my two cents ...

There was a discussion among a few mechanical engineers several months ago as to when the energy is transferred from the bullet to the gun. ( they were considering the BrowingAutomaticRifle )It seems from its performance, that the bullet is not an independent mass being accelerated away from the gun until the slug actually Exits the barrel because the slug is being somewhat coupled to the frame by the friction in the grooving.
The bullet also gains a spin acceleration to about 60,000 rpm.

What is mass of the frame+slide ???

Does the equation m1v1 = m2v2 work ??
Oh yes
!! M*S equals m*s ,for any period of time (conservation of momentum law).
This is the same formula used to calculate recoil impulse and recoil energy in a rifle or shotgun (only note that mass of powder has a very minor influence in most pistol calibers, but is very important for rounds with large doses of powder).
SouthGun, this is just a continuation of the post "1911 dynamics", all the calculations are there.
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Originally posted by TiroFijo:
OK guys, I'm sure all of you have seen the ever popular gunzine covers with the picture of the bullet just after exiting the muzzle of the pistol. Let's get one of these pictures where the bullet is really close to the muzzle, let's say about 1.5" (I've seen them even closer).
You'll notice that the slide and barrel of the 1911 (or similar Browning style pistol) are still locked together and have moved a bit back, say 0.12".
If my above mentioned explanation is correct, this is just as it should be (remember the slide/barrel are moving back at 20 fps.)
But let's say that the barrel and slide are still until the bullet leaves the muzzle, and only then start to recoil.
The velocity of the bullet is 830 fps.
The average velocity of the slide would be:
0.12" / 1.5" * 830fps = 66.4 fps
Now, the slide velocity was zero when the bullet exited, so the final velocity at the end of this 0.12" has to be much higher for the average velocity to be 66.4 fps. Assuming a linear acceleration the velocity would be 66.4*2 = 132.8 fps
Obviously something is very wrong, because now the momentum of the slide/barrel is much bigger than that of the bullet, and we know that M*S = m*s for any period of time (conservation of momentum).
I don't think gun magazine covers and guesses at the distances in them are scientific enough for our purposes. A GOOD picture is worth a thousand words....I don't think you'll ever convince me without the exact pictures I asked for.
Tiro Fijo, I'da commented earlier but was outta town. Anyway, it's a comment I've posted before....

"Danged Paraguayan rocket scientists!"

Seriously, I love an in-depth, well researched post like that, whether or not I agree with it. This one is so in-depth that I'm gonna have to read it a few times before I understand it enough to know if I agree or not!

You know who the "other" Tiro Fijo is, the one to your north? No relation I assume....
Hi, Ned. No relation whatsoever (it is a quite popular nickname around here), I'm one of the good guys
!!
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Nice topics TiroFijo! I've been quite busy this week so haven't been able to keep up with this lively discussion. However, I printed out the "Spring rate" and "Dynamics" posts and read through them.

One of the comments received had to do with balanced forces when the bullet is still in the barrel. Does that mean that even though the bullet is being accelerated down the barrel that the drag induced by the bullet/barrel friction tends to not impart a equal and opposite force to the gun itself but rather act to "drag" the gun along? That is until the bullet "breaks-away" from the barrel?

Keep up the good discussion.

What Tiro Fijo are you and Ned refering to?
10ring, Ned was joking about another "Tiro Fijo", a leftist guerrilla leader in Colombia. I have an entire article about how the lockup works (nothing new really compared to what is already outlined here, just a few more detail and words). Most people here are very knowledgeable and I was afraid of repeating the obvious.
By the way, there's a excellent new film (side view of a 1911) at the bottom of this page: http://www.kurzzeit.com/index_e.htm
there are more films coming, please take the time to say thanks to WM, the owner of this site.
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