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Discussion Starter #1
Has the experience with the 9mm really been so stellar? The combat stories that made the 1911 grow to prominence don't seem to be repeating since the adoption of this round. Also, I know we like to keep in sync with NATO, but aren't we overlooking the fact that the 45 ACP has proven itself to be a superior combat cartridge, and the 1911 a superior delivery device for that round? According to Jeff Cooper, Back when we audited the FBI academy in 1947, I was told that I ought not to use my pistol in their training program because it was not fair. Maybe the first thing one should demand of his sidearm is that it be unfair.
 

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I read in one of the 1911 forums a story about a guy over in Iraq who shot a guy with the 9mm, and he had to shoot him several times and only stopped him when he shot the bad guy in the head. He didn't like the 9mm very much. The rumor seems to be that the military is going back to the .45, with a big push being the H&K HK45.
Dan'o :cool:
 

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from what i have heard i doubt the military as a whole will be wanting to change anytime soon.. seems like someone on here said that they just got a rather large order of m9's not too long ago...


russel
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Thread titles like this just get my hope up needlessly. No one really likes the M9, that has to carry it on a daily basis. Its a large frame for a 9mm. Big deal. Its pretty reliable, and its smaller than an M4. Thats about the best that can be said for it. I've broken 3 of them in the time I've been in. Shot my 1911s alot more and haven't had one go down yet. Even if they don't want to go back to the 1911 model, at least get a .45 caliber.
 

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HIPCHIP said:
I read in one of the 1911 forums a story about a guy over in Iraq who shot a guy with the 9mm, and he had to shoot him several times and only stopped him when he shot the bad guy in the head. He didn't like the 9mm very much. The rumor seems to be that the military is going back to the .45, with a big push being the H&K HK45.
Dan'o :cool:
It's not a rumor, it's a failed program called the Joint Combat Pistol.

If any of you were wondering why everyone (sig, taurus, HK, beretta, etc) are turning out 'tactical' handguns in .45 with tan frames, it's because of the JCP.

It's 'suspended indefinitely' now, though.
 

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Like I said in an earlier thread, they'll never be able to please everyone. The professional soldier is going to want one thing, while the lowest common denominator is going to need another. They should forget about having a single universal service pistol for all branches of the military, and instead just let each organization purchase and issue pistols as they see fit. There are plenty of reasons to keep a standard service rifle weapons system intact, but not handguns.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Why would the American military adopt a foreign made pistol? Seems to me, taxpayers ought to demand that an American company be given preference in the bid process. If we want American industries other than service ones, if we want government spending to provide for economic growth at home instead of abroad, then American products need to be purchased by our military. I'm thinking Colt or S/W could mass produce a really high level military 1911 if they were given incentive to do so.
 

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Well I personally dont like Beretta, I have seen them jam when a nother gun was torture tested and didnt jam(Glock, Sig, Colt)and have seen a video from the squad car of a police officer who's gun was taken from him from a no good so an so. And he aimed it at him and pulled the trigger, fired once and missed, ran towads the officer and pulled the trigger again but the Berreta jammed and the officer drawn his 38 snubbie from his ancle holster and shot him. Regardless of Berreta's accuracy and looks it is not reliable.:grumble:
 

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Why would the American military adopt a foreign made pistol? Seems to me, taxpayers ought to demand that an American company be given preference in the bid process. If we want American industries other than service ones, if we want government spending to provide for economic growth at home instead of abroad, then American products need to be purchased by our military. I'm thinking Colt or S/W could mass produce a really high level military 1911 if they were given incentive to do so.
well, the berretta isnt an american company, its italian isnt it? part of the contract was that they were to come and build the guns in america. ( someone correct me if im wrong.. thats what i heard)

the government would get whatever they want, they will make a way.. lol... most companies that want the contract will bend to do what needs to be done.

that being said, i dont see the american companies, like smith and ruger ever really being considered, except for maybe smiths new m&p, which i dont really know much about.

would be interesting to see them change pistols, but i dont see it anytime soon. seems to me they are looking more at long arms than anything...

russel
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DoD has too much money and inventory invested in the 92 to get rid of them right now. Second, it has a safety/decocker and is double action, safety features that are looked upon as contributing to increased operational safety. Remember, in the military the primary weapon is the rifle. The pistol is for "supervisors" who's tactical duty isn't pulling a trigger. With that in mine, almost any functioning, low cost pistol will due. But, one of the primary considerations is operational safety. I doubt seriously that a single action or striker fired pistol will ever be selected by the military w/o a safety being added. Any accidental discharge, especially in garrison, can cost a commanding officer a career. As for HK, they've been pushing to get their weapons bought by DoD by going through the back door, i.e., Special Operations. HKs invested alot of R&D of their own money into future weapons and want a pay-off, so I hear tell.
 

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I think the armed forces are too busy critiquing their rifles right now to bother with pistols. :)
From what I "read" we have an enormous amount of heavy equipment and weapons to "replace" as it is.

No chance on a SA trigger being adopted. Plastic framed, non-SA trigger is probably a "shoe-in" whenever they switch...if they change.

What 1911 manufacturer could produce large amounts of working "out of the box" guns...meaning tens of thousands at a time? :cool:
 

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Irishlad said:
What 1911 manufacturer could produce large amounts of working "out of the box" guns...meaning tens of thousands at a time? :cool:
Good point.
 

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Irishlad said:
What 1911 manufacturer could produce large amounts of working "out of the box" guns...meaning tens of thousands at a time? :cool:
One that was given time to ramp up with an influx of pre-delivery money...it could be done. But its going to take a commitment. And I doubt seriously that its going to be done. Low priority don't cha know?
 

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I'm sure if you asked the troops they would have plenty of things on a want list before a new pistol.
 

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Constantine-p89 said:
Well I personally dont like Beretta, I have seen them jam when a nother gun was torture tested and didnt jam(Glock, Sig, Colt)and have seen a video from the squad car of a police officer who's gun was taken from him from a no good so an so. And he aimed it at him and pulled the trigger, fired once and missed, ran towads the officer and pulled the trigger again but the Berreta jammed and the officer drawn his 38 snubbie from his ancle holster and shot him. Regardless of Berreta's accuracy and looks it is not reliable.:grumble:
That is a statistical summary of one incident. The two rack grade M9's i have carried never had a malfunction, the second one in particular was fired by me, Marines in my platoon and other tenant units on the FOB to the tune of 3000+ rounds (a relatively small amount of ammo, but this pistol was being carried every day in an open top holster) - but i maintained the pistol and TOTALLY babied the magazines. As long as I can tweak and test magazines (supposedly they have better ones issued now), I think the Beretta is very reliable. There are other things not to like about it, though.
 

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Oh and the 1911 getting readopted? Forget it.
 

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The one thing that this thread hasn't touched on is that the 1911 never was 'dumped' by those in the know within DOD. Just that it was dumped for the big Army/Marines.
 

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If I remember correctly not many people were fond of the M1911A1 back when it was the standard service pistol. It was always too heavy, pathetically inaccurate, and kicked too hard.

Nowadays it is so fashionable to knock the M9. If it's so bad then why has the government repeatedly been buying new ones by the thousands, including a brand-new contract for M9A1's by the Marines? Oh that's right, because there's a conspiracy somewhere. :rolleyes:

Sigh. Just be glad the military didn't adopt Glocks back in 1985, otherwise that bubble too would've been burst a long time ago.
 
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