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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Here's a question I've been pondering lately. What do you guys think of the 40-grain .22TCM round from a 5-inch barrel of Rock Island 22TCM compared to Liberty Ammunition 60-grain .40S&W from 5-inch barrel of a Beretta 96?

I clocked the .22TCM 40-grain bullet from my TCM going just under 2200 fps. I also clocked the 60-grain lead-free Liberty Ammunition .40S&W frangible round going just over 2200. So, I'm getting about the same velocity from both rounds, but the .40 round is 20 grains (or 50%) larger and considerably bigger in diameter.

Which would you think would be better for self defense?


 

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I would think that it would depend on the amount of energy available on impact and how quickly it dissipates. If the frangible round fragments on impact then it's energy is expended quickly without significant penetration. If the smaller projectile gives up it's lesser energy farther into the target then it should be more effective in causing damage due to the hydrostatic shock within the tissue as it passes through. My natural prejudice toward the TCM is also buoyed by remembering how my .40 Glock would do the nasty-dance in my hand on firing, slowing the reacquisition of the target. The TCM with it's lesser recoil would be far likelier to place accurate secondary rounds on the target and hence produce quicker, more effective results.
But that's just my estimation and Your mileage may vary!
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 · (Edited)
Interesting points, OldEagleEars.

I watched a lot of ballistics tests with the lightweight 60-grain .40S&W ammo, which is why I ended up buying some to try. I was very impressed with it. The forward section of the bullet--that is, the part around the deep cavity--rips into 8 or 10 pieces, and these pieces create a large entry would that goes maybe 3 to 4 inches with a diameter of maybe 3 inches.

The back end, or the disc that left's after the frangible parts break off, that part continues intact and penetrated 10 to 12 inches. The bullet, being copper and nickel, doesn't deform, like common lead does, but the ballistics are nonetheless impressive. You get both a massive entrance wound as well as the deep penetration.

If you're interested, check out some Liberty .40 ammo tests on YouTube. Here's a typical one I just found:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQ-0KvIjZtE

This video is fairly common. Most of the videos I've seen show the same penetration pattern. The 9mm version of the same ammo goes to around 9-10 inches, but the .40 goes to 10 to 12 inches, which is why I recently graduated my carry weapon from 9mm to .40S&W--just so I could carry this ammo.

Here's the complete wound channel, which from left to right is about 11.25 inches. See the fragments on the left, which mushroom and expand in 360 degrees. And then the penetration of the rear disc, which goes the full 11.25 inches. (The wound channel in the top right is just another shot from the other side of the ballistic gel.)



And here are the recovered fragments. The front half, which surround the large cavity, have all broken up into shrapnel. Then the rear disc, which remains intact, achieves the penetration.



Also, I'm getting quite a bit higher velocity from my gun, but it's a 5-inch barrel. I plan to try my 4-inch Beretta Cougar barrel to see what kind of velocity different I get.

But, with my recent tests and research, the .40S&W with the 60-grain bullet seems to give the 22TCM a run for it's money--and in a much lighter package as well. My Beretta 96 weights in about 34 ounces and the Beretta Cougar about 32, I think.

Here's another great demonstration video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vc9Y20zr7hU

And the penetration snapshot from the video, with 12.5 inches:



I think it certainly makes for an interesting discussion.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 · (Edited)
I carry an Elite(96g), maybe its time I get some Liberty .40 rounds.
Nice. I LOVE my 96.

Some people are haters on the Liberty ammo. It's different from conventional ammo, for sure. It's doesn't deform, but is a frangible instead. That throws some people for a loop, because they've always talked about how the lead flattens out and they just don't know what to think of the bullet fragmenting instead.

But after finding out about this ammo, quite by chance, actually, I watched a bunch of YouTube videos, all with almost identical results, I then moved my carry caliber to .40S&W from 9mm and began looking for a gun to shoot it. I didn't own a .40, but I had ordered a few hundred rounds of the Liberty .40 ammo, because I knew I was "moving up." (They also have this Liberty ammo in 9mm, which I also have, but I like the .40 much better.)

So, I basically bought my Beretta 96 to carry this ammo. I've been wanting to get a Beretta 92 for years now, so I just got the 96 instead.

You'll always have people call you stupid for selecting this type of ammo for carry, but I'm sold on it and have been carrying it for over a month now. I LOVE IT. And the recoil is even reduced, because of the smaller bullet, and the carry weight of a full magazine is less, too--two excellent side effects for using this ammo, aside form its ballistics.

It also seems to be fairly accurate. I blew up a milk jug full of water on the first try at about 40 or 50 feet. And I mean it really EXPLODED! I have a video of it I can post. That sort of velocity from a .40 round is devastating.

So, I'm convinced. Check out some of the evidences and see if you like it, too. I bought the TCM pistol back in May because of the ballistics, but honestly, the Beretta 96 with the Liberty .40 ammo has replaced it--and the Beretta is considerably lighter than the TCM 1911.

I still love the TCM, but the Beretta is getting carried.
 

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JMO, I think "penetration" is really a case by case study. For example, I watched a video in HD slow motion of all calibers hitting 1" of acrylic ( bullet proof glass), the 22tcm penetrated over 1/2", the 9mm+p barely stuck in and everything else bounced off. I also saw a video of 22tcm go through 3/16" steel and 9mm+p made a dent. Personally from a defensive stand point, I think penetration is some what over rated, I do not want a defensive round to go through the BG and hit an innocent. I shot a hog with my 22tcm right behind the ear, dropped right there and no exit wound. It made spam out of the contents of the cranium. FWIW, carry what you are comfortable with and practice...ALOT
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Good points, Mike. I think that while the .22TCM generally good penetration, it's also designed not to over-penetrate, which it seems you've confirmed. That's good.

I want to do the TCM 3/16" steel test myself. Sounds interesting. Might be fun to compare that to the Liberty .40. I also have a half-inch-thick aluminum scuba dive tank, which I use for tests. The whole lot of 9mm, .45ACP, etc., just mar the surface and barely dent it. .22LR just splatters on it. The only thing I've penetrated with it is a 20-gauge slug, which punches out a half-inch diameter chunk from it. Pretty cool. I want to try the .22TCM and Liberty frangible in .40 and 9mm, both of which I haven't used on it yet. I also plan to try 7.62x39 from my SKS on it.
 
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