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Discussion Starter #1
Any actual data on the percentage of overpenetrations of 230 FMJ, and/or estimated exit velocity. Just curious.
 

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Penetrations and exits of what?

Please don't say "people". There are WAY too many variable for any kind of relevant data to penetration/exit velocity.

A 230 FMJ may penetrate and exit the abdominal cavity, provided it doesn't hit the spinal column, but there haven't been many volunteers to have the exit wound velocity chronographed.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Yup...people. Mainly curious if there is any data out there. I would guess the estimate of exit velocity would be from forensics gathered at a scene (e.g. bullet penetrated .8" into sheetrock behind deceased).

This was more of an "If there ain't no data, then why do so many people talk about 230 FMJ's DANGEROUS overpenetration". Just a pet peeve of mine. I'm an engineer, and see a lot of 'facts' derived from 'no data' when I'm at work.
 

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Originally posted by gm45:
"If there ain't no data, then why do so many people talk about 230 FMJ's DANGEROUS overpenetration.
Well, all other things being equal, FMJ will penetrate more than any other bullet.

Unfortunately, all other things are NEVER equal when it comes to forensic ballistics.

It is too hard to compare shootings, even with the same load/bullet configuration. The angle at which the bullet strikes, makes a significant change in penetration and internal wound channeling. A hollowpoint round will overpenetrate too, if the circumstances and variables are right. It is very difficult to compare and correlate data into any relevant result, because no two shootings are ever the same.

Yes, FMJ will USUALLY penetrate more than HP. How much more depends on too many factors.
 

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I have heard the 45 acp ball, was tested on deceased monkey`s back when it was first being looked at, to see how much the hanging monkey`s would swing, compared to other rounds.. The feedback was that the 45acp ball produced the most swing & the bullets rarely ever left there bodies.. Now i don`t know about ranges, type of monkeys, conditions etc.. It is just something mentioned by a gunsmith at AGI, when giving a brief history on the 1911.. I use ball ammo and don`t worry about over penetration.. If a hollow point doesn`t expand which is alot of the time, it will penetrate as much as ball.. -Gilmore

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ME,WE!

[This message has been edited by Citizen_Gilmore (edited 08-20-2001).]
 

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Originally posted by gm45:
Any actual data on the percentage of overpenetrations of 230 FMJ, and/or estimated exit velocity. Just curious.
Evan Marshall's 3rd book "Stopping Power" has average expansion and average penetration data. While several rounds are listed as "T&T" for "routinely pentrates through and through" .45 230 ball has an average figure of 20". I gather that this means it has stayed in enough to come up with an average measurement.

Ayoob wrote once in the first Colt Handgun annual that .45 ball exited the human body about 50% of the time.

I have not reviewed the details on nearly as many shootings as these guys have (perhaps on animals) but 50% give or take 20 would not seem too far off from what I have seen.

That is not an endorsement of the idea of depending on "One Shot Stop" data as a measure of effectivness BTW, though I hold Evan in the highest regard.

Press on,
Jim Higginbotham
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Thanks for the replies, guys.

I carry ball often without any personal qualms about it, but have had a few folks express mild horror that I would be so irresponsible. They've piped up with overpenetration numbers, but have never been able to tell me where the numbers came from. I was just wondering if anybody here had heard of a study done.
 

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At one time I was very concerned with the "over-penetration" factor.

Not anymore. In most cases I do not believe it is something worth worrying about. Unless you live in an apartment building with sheetrock walls.

Consider the numbers for accidental police shootings - where are they? The police in any large city routinely are involved in shootings in such scenarios. If over-penetration was producing a significant number of innocent victims - I am sure we would have heard about it a long time ago - before the advent of reliably-expanding bullets.
 

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Over penetration is a huge concern with rifle ammo. It is much less with 230 gr ball fired from a pistol with a standard 5" barrel. It is less of an issue when fired from a pistol with a shorter barrel. Assuming you do shoot your target and your round does over penetrate after going through the torso, it is unlikely that the round will carry much energy so that even if it does hit someone, it isn't very likely to penetrate into them.
 

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I can just see it now, the new measure of penetration: the Monkey. As in

"The .357 Magnum with hardcast SWC bullets at 1090 fps has a penetration factor of four Monkeys..."



Speaking of never knowing about penetration, some insulated winter wear is stuffed with material closely related to Kevlar. Someone wearing a vest and a coat of this material will show a greatly reduced Monkey-count.

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If God didn't want us to own guns, why did He make the 1911?
 

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Originally posted by LAK:
At one time I was very concerned with the "over-penetration" factor.

Not anymore. In most cases I do not believe it is something worth worrying about. Unless you live in an apartment building with sheetrock walls.

Consider the numbers for accidental police shootings - where are they? The police in any large city routinely are involved in shootings in such scenarios. If over-penetration was producing a significant number of innocent victims - I am sure we would have heard about it a long time ago - before the advent of reliably-expanding bullets.
I would bet that if there were any police involved shootings that resulted in an accidental wounding of a bystander from overpenetration we'd hear about in the news.
I can't recall any such stories.
What worries me more is how often the police miss what they are shooting at.
Consider how remote the chances are that any of us will ever have to fire our guns in self defense. Then compound that with the chances that if we do have to shoot, that a bullet will go through the target and then hit and injure or kill another person.
If you worry about astronomical odds like that, it might be better if you never left home.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Oh, I'm not worried about it, just mainly curious (as stated above, I carry ball). There's a lot of opinions, but very little backed up by real data. I was just seeing if anybody had some. JimH and Gilmore have the best peripheral data on the subject so far (even if my Garands "monkey factor" is too high to use in a trailer park). ;-)

I just hear folks occasionally get in pretty heated discussions about it (and other subjects too), and when it gets down to brass tacks, they have often formed their opinions off of nothing more than other peoples opinions.
 

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I do like Hollow points as far as they can be more forgiving with ricochet, also with the heavy hollowpoints i notice there is a little more rifling engagment on them, which i suppose is because there is more bullet on the bottom end to make up for the weight that was takin out for the cavity.. It seems this would make them more accurate?.. I use to be interested in all the latest designes and tests but have givin it up.. Clint Smith, and Jeff Cooper, shoot ball.. -Gilmore

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Citizen Gilmore,
You can also add my name to the list of ball shooters for defense. Although I can't even hold a magazine carrier to Mr. Smith or the Colonel. I'll take 3 monkey penetration any day of the week. Two World Wars and what have we learned, ball is an effective stopper.

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Soujurn,

Average citizens have a better hit ratio than cops, and a bettr record of shooting the right person(s). Alot of it has to do with the circumstances under which the shootings occur. But I dare say that the "modern" police tactics of "all your bullets in the direction of the thug as fast as you can pull the trigger" (or what they sometimes mistakenly assume is a thug) probably makes it very risky to be anywhere in the general vicinity.

JPWright,

In areas where it gets cold, I don't think enough emphasis is placed on the factor of heavy clothing. That, and perhaps the chance of a less than ideal target presentation - especially a target that possibly may weigh more than a whitetail deer.

This is the reason I have switched to heavy bullets. 230 in .45's and 147's in 9mm - HP's that have a moderate level of expansion, and ball in all spare mags. I am also a reminded of the value of the Mozambique drill.
 

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I was beginning to wonder if I was the only "dummy" to use 230 hardball as a carry ammo. I am glad to see I'm not. I do prefer the match stuff to just any run of the mill though.
 

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Originally posted by JRJ:
I was beginning to wonder if I was the only "dummy" to use 230 hardball as a carry ammo. I am glad to see I'm not. I do prefer the match stuff to just any run of the mill though.
Nope, you're not the only one and I'm with you on the match stuff. My carry ammo is Federal's 230gr ball "match" round. You should see some of the looks I've got when people discover my carry ammo is ball. I get allot of "you have to use hollow points" or "that bullet doesn't have the stopping power of a JHP". That last one really makes me laugh
.
 

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<><> Count me in on the ball ammo. Right now PMC 230gr fmj. When this case runs out, whatever is reliabe, and on sale. That is one of the things about ball that I like, you can use it for practice and carry, and it is still affordable. Myself, I would worry more about penetration than overpenetration.

Raspy

[This message has been edited by raspy (edited 08-22-2001).]
 

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Discussion Starter #20
The ones I've used to date are PMC, UMC, Fed "Match", and IMI. Mostly IMI these days.
 
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