1911Forum banner
1 - 13 of 13 Posts

· Registered
Joined
·
20 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I was inquiring at the LGS today about all the 38 Super ammo being rated as +P. The owner stated I could shoot 9 Largo (Bergmann-Bayard) in the 38 Super but could not shoot the +P in a gun chambered in 9 Largo. He had several boxes of CCI Bergmann-Bayard 9 Largo. With the 9 Largo being cheaper does anyone know if his statement is true? Any other insight would be greatly appreciated.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
4,263 Posts
The Bayard has a shorter over all length than the .38 Super if I remember right. Proper bullet diameter for the Bayard is .355 and for the Super .358. The round will fit in the gun and fire. Accuracy will most likely not be much and you may have problems with feeding and ejection, headspacing etc. It may convert your semi auto into a single shot. Basically the round takes a 9 mm bullet same as the .38 Super can.

It is never a good idea to take a pistol or long gun and stuff it with ammo not intended for it just cuz it may fit.

Sounds like the dealer is willing to sell you this ammo cheap to unload it. Not many guns around for it anymore.

For just plinking Armscorp and Winchester sell relatively inexpensive .38 Super.

tipoc
 

· Registered
Joined
·
457 Posts
Tipoc is the King of 38super commanders

Tipoc, how about some photos of your commanders? Youv'e done well with your
collection for being behind the wall. RB
 

· Registered
Joined
·
4,263 Posts
Armscorp and Aguila both make some decent plinking .38 Super at reasonable prices. Though most of the major manufacturers (Winchester, Remington,Cor Bon, PMC, etc. If I remember right Black Hills as well.) also make it. Some in very good loads. I usually get mine at gun shows where I load up. I can also get factory reloads from outfits like SuperX among others.

Cheaper than Dirt also handles it from time to time.

I don't have links for these but if you use Google or whatever other search function you have you will find them. You can either order direct from them or their distributers or have your local gunatorium order for you. If your local range sells ammo they will be happy to order some for you.

I'm not the King of Commanders, but here are two old girls. The .38 Super from 1949 (with a Bar-Sto barrel added) and the .45 from 1969 both with the alloy frame both shoot well enough.

tipoc



 

· Super Moderator
EDC: SIG P938.
Joined
·
22,396 Posts
The 9mm Largo/Bergmann-Bayard is a rimless round. In terms of external dimensions, it's closer to 9x23 than to Super. The case length should be within a few .001s of Super. Both use bullets of .355"-.357" diameter. If it will chamber, and the extractor can get a grip on the rimless case, 9mmL/B-B should be safe in a Super. Your mileage may vary.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
1,168 Posts
Are there any 38 super rounds that aren't marked +P? I think since the advent of Super Face, the makers of the 38 supers have started using a thicker brass that's rated for +P loads, however not many of the 38 super loads come up to that level. The brass makers know that it's reasonable to assume that if you make all the supers +P than you are less likely to be sued and it probably cost the same to make. All the Supers I've shot lately seem to be kinda tame compared to the ones I used to shoot. They have been chronoing at about 11-1200fps.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
4,263 Posts
If I remember right the plus P designation on some ammo makers .38 Super goes back aways and on .38 Super loads don't always mean it's loaded to higher pressures than their standard fare. To put it another way some manufacturers have never sold any .38 Super that they didn't mark +P. This was to make it clear that it was not a .38 acp round, the Browning designed round the Super was based on.

I'm not sure there are +P specs that SAMMI recognizes for a .38 Super round as it does for the 9mm for example.

In the latest issue of Guns and Ammo Handguns mag there is an article on reloading the .38 Super for competition by Patrick Sweeney. He reminds me that "superface" was the result of too hot handloads in unramped barrels where the rear of the case was unsupported and would blow out.

Some one correct me please on these observations cuz I'm recalling off the top of my head which apparently sometimes changes shape.

Ove the years folks have said to me "try .38 largo in a super" I hesitate to do it cuz I'm cautious about my guns. But I doubt a few rounds will damage anything. Try it maybe and let us know.

tipoc
 

· Registered
Joined
·
163 Posts
tipoc said:
If I remember right the plus P designation on some ammo makers .38 Super goes back aways and on .38 Super loads don't always mean it's loaded to higher pressures than their standard fare. To put it another way some manufacturers have never sold any .38 Super that they didn't mark +P. This was to make it clear that it was not a .38 acp round, the Browning designed round the Super was based on.

I'm not sure there are +P specs that SAMMI recognizes for a .38 Super round as it does for the 9mm for example.
Quoting shamelessly from Speer #13 loading manual:

In 1974, the industry adopted the +P headstamp for cartridges having two pressure limits. Because the 38 Super is identical in appearance to the older 38 Auto cartridge, the +P designator was added to the Super case to avoid confusion....These loads are not for use in Colt Models 1900 and 1902 pistols.

In other words you're right -- 38 Super +P as a designation for a higher-than-normal power 38 Super doesn't really exist in the same way that 9mm +P or 38 Special +P does. Or I suppose you could think of 38 Super +P as being a 38 Auto +P load, although that's probably less formally correct.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
23,953 Posts
When CCI was making Blazer Largo one of our guys bought all he could find to shoot in .38 Super guns. Worked fine. HOWEVER, I have read that real Spanish Largo may be too long OAL for Colt Super magazine. Better check before you stock up.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
3,320 Posts
mobocracy said:
Quoting shamelessly from Speer #13 loading manual:

In 1974, the industry adopted the +P headstamp for cartridges having two pressure limits. Because the 38 Super is identical in appearance to the older 38 Auto cartridge, the +P designator was added to the Super case to avoid confusion....These loads are not for use in Colt Models 1900 and 1902 pistols.

In other words you're right -- 38 Super +P as a designation for a higher-than-normal power 38 Super doesn't really exist in the same way that 9mm +P or 38 Special +P does. Or I suppose you could think of 38 Super +P as being a 38 Auto +P load, although that's probably less formally correct.
...no, you hit it right on the money. The .38 Auto as originally loaded ran in the 1050-1150 range. When introduced in 1929 in the 1911 there really was no .38 Super ammo at first. Slowly the ammo companies raised the valocity till some were reaching 1300 fps...and most of it was not marked "Super"...just .38 Auto. I am not at home so I don't have my reference material avalable but it wasn't till many years later that there came to be some concerns that Super ammo was getting into 1902 Automatics. It didn't "blow them up"...just beat them to death to the point of a possible dangerous breakage.

If you notice there is no more .38 Auto ammo on the market...there is however a whole bunch of .38 Super 130 grain FMJ rounds that are going about the same velocity as the warmer original .38 ACP rounds...meaning...the .38 Super is nothing more that a .38 Auto in a mis-marked case...and the .38 Super +P...most of which doesn't even make the the 1250-1300 FPS velocity of the original 130 grain rounds...are nothing more than .38 Auto +P. The only "real" .38 Super +P rounds out there are by CorBon, MagSafe and maybe Georgia Arms. Truely sad....

As to using 9x23 or 9mm Largo in a Super...will depend on how your gun is chambered.... First your chamber has to be of the newer headspace on the casemouth type vs. the original headspace on the rim. Second it will depend how tight the chamber is.... I have a dozen Supers and almost all of them will feed and fire 9x23 and 9mm Largo like they were chambered for them...that includes the two MechTech Carbine Conversions I shoot also.

One thing that has happend to me lately is several cases of "Superface" that had only happened twice in the last 25 years of shooting the Super (and that was my fault for trying to push a Hornady 160 grain .357 bullet to 1200 fps). I had bought a whole bunch of brass cases at an estate sale and loaded them fairly warm but nothing my guns haven't been handling without any problem for 25 years...cases started blowing however...all turned out to be old .38 Auto cases. They have now all been sorted out and no more "blows" have occurred.

Nominal bullet dimeter for the .38 Super is .356. As it is a straight walled case this means that any .355, .356 or .357 diameter pistol bullet will work. I have used bullets as light as the 88 grain 9mm Speer HP to the 160 grain Hornady .357 Silhouette bullet and have seen loads from Layne Simpson using the 170 and 180 grain Sierra RN bullets...no other pistol cartridge has this versitility...

Tipoc...a 1949....Super...wow....I have two 51s, two 52s and a 56 but would love an unaltered 1949...in the original box of course...:rock:

Bob
 
1 - 13 of 13 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top