[smoney]

I am currently playing in ESP for IDPA competition, shooting my colt 38 super i first thought ( wilson 10 round mags) so i bought a couple, then got a deal i couldn't pass upon a couple colt 9 round mags.

now i am thinking that if i load 9+1 that gives me 10 rounds before slide lock. if i am shooting all paper, then thats 2 per target. i will end up reloading between targets, NOT between a controled pair/double tap.

so which should i use, yes, i am admittedly a gamer when i am playing games.

thanks for all replies, there are always a lot of valuable experienced opinions here.

 

[deadeye]

i dunno about that one. there is the fine art of "gaming" and there is cheating.i would have to call that "cheating".personally i'd let a new guy slide one match and slam an experienced shooter every time. you have the right equipment,and you are doing it soley to gain a competitive advantage.i'd hate to see you shoot the best match of your life,knowing yourself you kind of cheated.but hey if it will fly,and you can live with it....ya know i have a real cool short ar with a c-more and compensator and some 40 round mags,hmm maybe if wear it under a big overcoat i can shoot that next match

 

[smoney]

so your saying i should shoot a 40 S&W so i can only fit nine?

i don't see as either way it could be considered cheating, as it is not breaking any rules. if it were a special made magazine that took 9 maybe, but since that is OEM, and they are a lot less stressful on the thumbs i don't see how it could be construed as cheating.

 

[deadeye]

well actually it is breaking some rules as i interept them.under "Purpose" the rulebook states that the goal is to test ability,not equipment and gamesmanship.a little further down it states that if you are caught using equiment not in the spirit and the match director is convinced you did this to gain a competitive advantage you will be dqued from the entire match.way down is, Autoloaders must begin a Vickers count string requiring a reload loaded to max capacity.as by your own admission,you have ten round mags,and you are doing this to gain an edge, you are flagrantly violating at least the above, in my opinion anyway,but my wife and kids will tell you what my opinion is worth. i mean you wouldn't be looking for somebody to tell you it was o.k. if you weren't pretty sure it wasn't,right?

 

[smoney]

actually, i am a business managment student, i have problems with ethics, i sort of just don't care. My question is mainly aimed at other ESP shooters to see what they use. for quality or capacity.

also to say that many people out there are not doing things to their guns to gain a competitive edge is almost laughable.

what i am wondering is if there is a real advantage, as for the wilsons, they do hold 10, but that last round i practically have to stand on the round to get it in.

 

[deadeye]

its also harder to slam the mag home with the slide closed.i use wilsons and mcormicks and dont find much difference between the two.....supercomp brass,being rimless eases both of these problems somewhat,but some extractor tuning or replacement may be needed.....wasnt trying to be a jerk,but i cant help it,i was born that way.

 

[smoney]

i thought about the super comp brass, but you can't get super comp carry ammo, and brass is more expensive, most of my loads will be an IDPA power factor legal 130-135 in the super, and i am currently shooting American Eagle, or Winchester white box +p ammo, that is not too hot for the gun ( in my opinion) and i will carry probabally cor-bon or the like ammo when i want to carry a 1911.

so anybody out there shoot ESP and have any good tips or experiences?


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Any gun will do if You will do.

 

[JoeMc]

Let me add my two cents. I shoot a 9x23 and my buddy shoots a super. We both concluded that running 10+1 in Wilson mags is not a smart thing to do either in carry or competition. The added pressure that the 10th round puts on the slide can and has caused our guns to jamb. So for carry or in competition we load 9 in our mags, not to game or gain tactical advantage but to get reliability from our guns. As for myself I never load 10 evan if doing so would cause me to reload in a stage. In IDPA I shoot with what I carry. No SO should bang you for being "practical". If he does than he's playing range nazi and thats What the IDPA doesn't want. Of course thats just my opinion and I may be wrong...for the first time.

 

[John Forsyth]

My take on it from the gamer aspect, go with the 9 round mags and top off for an even round count. I was shooting a single stack .40 using 8 rd mags making it 8+1. That was definitely putting me at a disadvantage with respect to number of reloads and where they occured. I am now using 10mm mags and shooting 9+1. I too noticed how many matches have even number round counts for stages. If they are more than 10, they are usually 12 or more.

The legalities of it say that it is OK to go with the 9rd mags because those mags factory supplied with the pistol. Remember this, at some major matches you have to declare how many rounds your mags hold. If you declare 9 and for some stage you load up 10 because it is to your advantage to do so, you will be inviting a procedural or even a FTDR for that stage.

------------------
John

"And by the way, Mr. Speaker, The Second Amendment is not for killing ducks and leaving Huey and Dewey and Louie without an aunt and uncle. It is for hunting politicians like (in) Grozney and in 1776, when they take your independence away".
Robert K. Dornen, U.S. Congressman. 1995

 

[deadeye]

thank you for clarifying the issue John.that is exactly what i had a problem with,using the tens when it worked for you and the nines when that was a plus.

 

[PK]

Excuse me for butting in here but, isn't IDPA a game? Isn't using a 9 round mag legal under the rules? I'm sorry, but if it's legal under the rules, I don't feel as if I'm cheating. This is not a test of equipment, rather a test of your ability to properly plan a stage, which is important to winning as your shooting. To call using a mag with one round less capacity to better place your reloads cheating is ludicrous.

 

[Joe D]

I shoot a .40 Kimber. With the 10mm mags I have 9 + 1. There were a couple of stages in the Georgia State Championship Match that I would liked to have had one more round. Stage 5 required 10 rds in the first string. T1 and T2 got three rounds each. T3 and T4 called for two each. T3 and T4 were approx. 20 yds away and obscured by barrels. T4 was more than half covered by the barrel. I did not have a good sight picture for the second shot on T4 so I had to put another round into it. This extra round was cause for a reload.

 

[Electric_Armadillo]

If having 9 vs. 10 makes such a difference, just don't put in the extra +1 for the 10 rounder. Every time I play IDPA, I insert my ten round mag, rack the slide, lower then hammer and I'm ready to go (SSP Div).

I think its too much of a pain to load in the extra one anyway when I've been waiting in line to shoot, and have to wait to load cuz most of them are cold ranges.

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-Electric Armadillo

 

[Joe D]

Smoney, I probably should not care about your statement on ethics, but that is just one of the things that is wrong with our country today. You said that you are a Business Management student. I wonder how your potential employers would look at you if during the interview process they knew you "sort of just don't care" about ethics. Here's some free advice from someone who is most likely a lot older and perhaps wiser than you are. When you get to the end of this race we run called life I hope you will have come to the realization that ethics and morals do count. I am sure you will have some angry response justifying your statement or perhaps you truly just don't care. I prefer the "old school" where a man's word was his bond and a handshake contract meant something.

 

[smoney]

Joe, why would i be angered? you probabally are much older than i, and more experienced, i am only 21, i have just been shooting for a long time. My definition of ethics is a bit different than yours i thinkg. in college they teach that ethics is everything, ( hiring a black person on merit alone) well, i am not racist, but what if its an all white plant. as a worker most cases he wont' be accepted and won't work there long anyway, and my respect would be tarnished. To hire someone you know over a stranger is that unethical? yes if they are a slacker, but not so much if you know they will work.

from my experience ethics are a social problem only with people who have lost. i have yet to see a winner say i won, but i am not taking the job/permotion because its unethical.

morals are a little different. still a social standard placed upon the members of its society. however they are usually good trait's such as not stealing the suit case of money when the owners back is turned.

that said i do have moral's and believe in Honor, something i learned from my years of martial arts study.

so joe, i hope that makes things a little clearer. my personal opinion is that a lack of honor and morals is what is degrading society. and maybe the people who write the books on ethics are just a little over the top. if you live up to your word, and behave in an honorable manner i don't think there will be much problem in the after life.

that said, i don't think a little "gaming" in an IDPA match will hurt my chances at the pearly gates.


also to some of the above, i was not planning to swap mags throughout the match, just trying to decide on what mags to keep as my comp mags, and which round count to buy more of.

 

[kbear38S]

Originally posted by deadeye:
i dunno about that one. there is the fine art of "gaming" and there is cheating.i would have to call that "cheating".

Man I'm glad IDPA came along to purge that kind of thought from IPSC.

It boggles my mind that somebody will call another a cheater for using perfectly legal equipment.

 

[John Forsyth]

Originally posted by kbear38S:
It boggles my mind that somebody will call another a cheater for using perfectly legal equipment.

You just hit one of the big problems as I see it in IDPA. There are those out there that will call you a cheater or a "gamer" if you do it anyway other than their way. If you want to use 9rd or 10rd mags, have at it. Just be consistent. There is nothing illegal about it.

One other thing, if the COF is a scenario, you are required to top off per IDPA rules. If you do not, you are inviting a 3 sec. procedural. At club matches you will most likely not be penalized. At the Nats, you just added 3 sec. to your time.

------------------
John

"And by the way, Mr. Speaker, The Second Amendment is not for killing ducks and leaving Huey and Dewey and Louie without an aunt and uncle. It is for hunting politicians like (in) Grozney and in 1776, when they take your independence away".
Robert K. Dornen, U.S. Congressman. 1995

 

[Walking Point]

Switching different capacity mags, from stage to stage, or in the same stage is not allowed in matches in my area and would likely result in a "failure to do right" call.

My 1911 functions perfectly with the Wilson 10 rounders, but as has already been mentioned, they are harder to insert. If they are "really" hard to insert or load, then you need to leave them loaded for a few weeks.

I think it makes the most sense to use all your mags as 9 rounders. I wouldn't call it cheating either, as the only folks who don't try to match their equipment to their competitive goals are usually the losers.

 

[smoney]

thank you walking point. i don't need to switch mags all the time, i just want to use ONE type of mag so i will probabally just buy some more colts unless there is some problem with them i am un aware of.

i will carry wilsons just because i like them, and will probabally use them in local matches that have standards stages that sometimes run up to 35-40 rounds. extra mags help.

thanks for the good reply's!

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Any gun will do if You will do.

 

[deadeye]

smoney;my thought process is such that i immediately assumed you would use different mags on the paper stages and the go to the 10's for the plate rack.for what its worth,i offer up an apology.