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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Dardas offers both weights in LRN and the ogive appears the same. Is there a reason both weights are offered?
 

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I didn't check Dardas' website to confirm this, but most 124-grain bullets are sized smaller than their 125-grain counterparts, which accounts for the "lost" grain of weight. I usually use Missouri 125-grain IDP #6 lead semi-wadcutters in my .38 Super. They are sized to .356" but I recently looked at some Precision Cast 124-grain lead semi-wadcutters that appear to be cast with the same mold and found they are sized to .355", which is the preferred size for a 9mm, I believe. Hunter Supply sells an identical-looking bullet sized to .357" for the .357 Sig.

Ed
 

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Those are slightly different bullet designs. The 124 transitions directly from the body to the nose (gradual shoulder), whereas the 125 is a rebated nose with a step transition from the body to the nose (abrupt shoulder). This results in a slight difference in how the bullet body (shank) engages the rifling. The 125 looks to have a longer nose, so should allow for a longer COAL, and as we know COAL affects feeding reliability. The longer body of the 124 will have more bearing surface with the rifling.


AveragEd, please explain why you can lose 1 grain weight by different diameters. Also, Dardas offers both bullets in your choice of sized diameters. (It pays to visit the website!)
 

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The bullets I use in both .356" and .357" sizes are identical - they have what looks like a crimping grove and just a hair above that, the nose tapers up to a flat point. As I said, I don't know what Dardas bullets look like.

If the bullets are sized in a sizing die that basically scrapes the bearing surfaces down to the desired size as the ones I used to own when I was casting my own bullets did, a .355" bullet will weigh less than one sized to .356". The .356" 125-grain bullets I use weigh almost right on 125 grains but their .357" counterparts weigh a little more but not over 125.5 grains so they still are called a 125-grain bullet. I don't have any of the 124-grain ones on hand to check.

Ed
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Superdude, I see what you mean, now looking at the pictures again. They are small pictures, aren't they? :( The ogive does appear a bit different, but the angle of the picture is different so I didn't see it at first.

I've been shooting the 125gr. and have had no FTF with them. I've yet to work up an accuracy load with them though, because... well I've been lazy. Wait, no it's been too windy, that's it!

That does bring up another question I have. I've been loading these 125gr. with W231 at 4.0gr. basically a starting load. They chrono at 1050 from a 5" barrel. I have a lot of room to push them faster according to reloading data, but how fast can I push them?

As I've said before, I'm not new to reloading but new to 9mm and also to lead cast bullets. How do I know when I push them too hard? Accuracy, leading, recoil, KABOOM? ;)
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
AveragEd, thanks for your reply. You type a lot faster than I do. :)

You should look at the Dardas website, as 124gr. are offered in 3 diameters and 125gr. in 4 diameters.

I think there is more to it than just sizing.
 

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Our best guide for when you're gone too far is if you exceed published load data. Seriously, we have limited tools in that respect. Our next best guide is pressure signs in the primers, but several factors can influence this, and they are a poor guide at best. But, in general, a good rule of thumb is that if you see pressure signs in the primers, you've gone too far. The one clear exception to this is the Remington 1 and 1/2 primer, which is not designed for high pressure and can show excess pressure signs even though you are within SAAMI pressure limits. Excess bulging in the brass is another clue, but this generally applies to chambers that don't fully support the case. Velocity is a poor guide since velocity can vary from one gun to another even if they are the same brand with the same barrel length. Recoil is a poor guide since what do you compare it too? A kaboom is a great guide, for obvious reasons!

You can see pressure signs in primers and brass at the first link below, and specific information about different primers at the second link, which just happens to have looked at 231 and a 124 grain bullet in the 9mm Luger.

http://38super.net/Pages/Factory2.html#Anchor-3800

http://38super.net/Pages/Primers.html
 

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The bullets I use in both .356" and .357" sizes are identical - they have what looks like a crimping grove and just a hair above that, the nose tapers up to a flat point. As I said, I don't know what Dardas bullets look like.

If the bullets are sized in a sizing die that basically scrapes the bearing surfaces down to the desired size as the ones I used to own when I was casting my own bullets did, a .355" bullet will weigh less than one sized to .356". The .356" 125-grain bullets I use weigh almost right on 125 grains but their .357" counterparts weigh a little more but not over 125.5 grains so they still are called a 125-grain bullet. I don't have any of the 124-grain ones on hand to check.

Ed
Okay. Your bullet sizer might have scraped the lead off to achieve the proper size. Mine didn't (Lyman). The die entry was beveled to prevent this and it only compressed the bullet to get the correct diameter.
 

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I didn't check Dardas' website to confirm this, but most 124-grain bullets are sized smaller than their 125-grain counterparts, which accounts for the "lost" grain of weight. I usually use Missouri 125-grain IDP #6 lead semi-wadcutters in my .38 Super. They are sized to .356" but I recently looked at some Precision Cast 124-grain lead semi-wadcutters that appear to be cast with the same mold and found they are sized to .355", which is the preferred size for a 9mm, I believe. Hunter Supply sells an identical-looking bullet sized to .357" for the .357 Sig.

Ed
Actually, the .357 SIG shoots a 9mm bullet (.355).

But, most folks recommend that a cast bullet be oversize for best gas seal and accuracy.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Our best guide for when you're gone too far is if you exceed published load data. Seriously, we have limited tools in that respect. Our next best guide is pressure signs in the primers, but several factors can influence this, and they are a poor guide at best. But, in general, a good rule of thumb is that if you see pressure signs in the primers, you've gone too far. The one clear exception to this is the Remington 1 and 1/2 primer, which is not designed for high pressure and can show excess pressure signs even though you are within SAAMI pressure limits. Excess bulging in the brass is another clue, but this generally applies to chambers that don't fully support the case. Velocity is a poor guide since velocity can vary from one gun to another even if they are the same brand with the same barrel length. Recoil is a poor guide since what do you compare it too? A kaboom is a great guide, for obvious reasons!

You can see pressure signs in primers and brass at the first link below, and specific information about different primers at the second link, which just happens to have looked at 231 and a 124 grain bullet in the 9mm Luger.

http://38super.net/Pages/Factory2.html#Anchor-3800

http://38super.net/Pages/Primers.html
Thanks for the links, very informative site sir.

I know about pressure signs, and I also know that pressure may get too high without showing any signs. I got over the 'max velocity is best!' fever years ago. ;)

I think I've read about an upper velocity limit for lead bullets, but I can't remember exactly what I read, nor can I find it again.

I suppose the answer is like most things to do with reloading... 'it depends'.

Thanks for the replies fellas.
 

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bullet weight and sizing

Lead bullets should not change weight when they are properly sized....they are swaged to the proper diameter which should not remove any lead.

More often than not, the weight of a cast bullet is a variable due to the type of lead alloy used and the actual mold itself. I know when I cast my own bullets, if I didn't wait long enough for the lead to harden slightly when the lead was in the mold blocks, striking the sprue plate would sometimes smear the base and cause slight variations in the bullet weight. However, one grain of weight never made much difference in overall accuracy.....having a good bearing surface and the proper sized bullet for the barrel was more conducive to optimal accuracy along with the right powder.
 

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Dardas will answer any question about his bullets and recommend which one to shoot if you want. Bullet are molded to size then ran thru a sizing die to lube and verify the size. otherwise you would end up with a load of bullets that where shaved. If you want .355 they will be molded too .355 or molded to .356 not a molded .356 sized to .355
 

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Dardas offers both weights in LRN and the ogive appears the same. Is there a reason both weights are offered?
Temper, I think I have the same question as you.... Really, what is the difference (besides a little shape and 1g), does it matter? To those that have shot both, what did you think?

I've loaded and shot thousands of 147's from Precision and Missouri, but my taste are changing and I'd like to try the smaller bullet. I compete and recoil being subjective, the 147 thud where as the 124/5 zing. I've shot a couple thousand Montana Gold 124's, most with 4.8 WSF and a few hundred of 3.8 T G. I enjoyed them very much!

Part of me wants to buy from a maker who only makes one size so I don't have to decide; but I've also shot a few thousand 180 .45 from Darda's and I like his product, company, etc so when I think quality, CS, etc...he's, somebody I'd buy from.

I shoot a XDM 5.25 9mm. I primarily used WSF in 9mm, but have a bit of TG and Clays; and a sparse amount of Universal, BE and Red Dot lying around.

Those with experience with a 124 and the 125, I'd welcome your experience and thoughts on the matter.

Thanks,
 

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9mm is 355 and if shooting lead you want minimum of 356 to max 357 lead bullet.

38 Super is 356 and so you really want a minimum 357 to max 358 lead bullet.

All that said you really need to slug a barrel to find which size you need if shooting competitively so I told. For friendly completive shooting with friends or relatives with you 9mm 355 or 356 lead you would be hard pressed to tell a difference except possibly some increase leading depending on powder type and amount.

I shoot the much hotter 38 Super that has been +P since 1927 to 1929 time frame with factory loads with a 130 gr ball loaded to 1250fps as the standard even today with most factory loaded to those early spec's being advertised as +P loads.

I think most hand/re-loaders loader's are going well past that 1250 mark because depending on powder used you can get a 130gr to 1250fps and still be several thousand psi below SAMII Standard for pressure. The 38 Super being a true straight walled case unlike the 9mm is less problematic loading lead and unlike the 9mm case isn't bulged so badly.

My powder of choice is mainly WSF and 231

As you can tell I love the 38 Super. :D
 

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blah dee blah blah blah

I have on my shelves lead, plated, and jacketed "9mm" bullets that range from a ten-thou-miked .3542" up to .3596".

Mostly I shoot the lead beauties that I get from Penn Bullets, his perfect 125g RNBB sized to a rigid .356". I shoot them through numerous 9x19/9x21 bores.

IF they didn't provide sufficient accuracy I would: slug my bore; buy .357" size.


As always, if the load don't shoot switch the bullet :grumble:



:D
 
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