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I gotta say I do love my .45 1911s, but I have lots of 9mm ammo on hand ... bought before the big rush started. I stocked up before the '19 elections. I wanted that sweet 1911 action and trigger but to be able to shoot some of that backstock of 9mm ammo.

I found two that grabbed my attention right away ... a stainless Kimber Target II and a Colt Competition also stainless ... I couldn't decide so I got them both. The Kimber is more of a Bullseye gun with adjustable sights and the Colt is more of a USPSA single stack shooter.

They both are seeing lots of range time and really are easier on my 67-year-old hands and wrists ... I really like them.
 

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I've said it before and I'll say it again:

It is absolutely awesome that there are so many platforms and calibers available that there's a perfect system for anyone out there.

Sure guns and ammo are expensive but if you are willing to put in the effort, which includes range rentals, and using friends' guns, you will find what works best for you.

You might even find multiple systems that work equally well for you. Bonus!
 

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It is basic physics. I used to shoot steel plate competition at 50 yards. Start with a 10 inch square plate setting atop a railroad tie. Hits make noise, but don't count unless the plate falls off the tie. 9mm and even .357 magnum both make nice loud noises, but unless the hit is in the upper quarter of the plate, do nothing about knocking it off the tie. 45 acp, .44 Spec and Mag, .45 colt, ALL remove the plate from the tie completely. Energy released at impact is significantly higher with the large bore, slower moving cartridges.
 

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Actually it takes force and force=mass x acceleration, its the 2nd law, just before the 3rd.

9mm is 124 grain accelerated from zero to 1200 fps
45ACP is 230 grain accelerated from zero to 830 fps

That doesn't mean 9mm has more force than .45ACP, my point is, it isn't just the mass, its linear, and thus just as much the acceleration as the mass effects the total force.
1200 is on the higher side, +p. 830 is on the lower side, standard pressure.
It is basic physics. I used to shoot steel plate competition at 50 yards. Start with a 10 inch square plate setting atop a railroad tie. Hits make noise, but don't count unless the plate falls off the tie. 9mm and even .357 magnum both make nice loud noises, but unless the hit is in the upper quarter of the plate, do nothing about knocking it off the tie. 45 acp, .44 Spec and Mag, .45 colt, ALL remove the plate from the tie completely. Energy released at impact is significantly higher with the large bore, slower moving cartridges.
It's probably related to momentum. Heavier bullets favor momentum. The other thing is, a 45 is capable of more velocity than 830 in a full size pistol. There's +p and the 45 super. A FNX/Glock 21/HK shooting 45 super offer capacity and power while still having the ability to shoot standard 45. Seems like light and faster have become more favored of late with the 45 being called the 45AARP etc. I mean, ask Halyna Hutchins and Joel Sousa how ineffective big and slow is.
 

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Discussion Starter · #69 ·
Take a golf ball moving at 90mph....get hit with it.

Now take a baseball moving at 75mph and get hit with it....

Both are gonna hurt...but one is probably going to hurt more...
 

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1200 is on the higher side, +p. 830 is on the lower side, standard pressure.
I was making the reference from memory off NATO or military standard.
I agree, most commercial 9mm is a little slower and most commercial .45 is a little faster.
I also seem to remember looking at the numbers and even reading somewhere, that NATO 9mm is hotter than standard commercial but it is not as hot as +P, and the muzzle velocities reflect that.

The metal plate example is interesting. Although I think we all agree a round should be judged by the damage it does to a human being over the ability to knock a metal plate off a railroad tie, as to its effectiveness. The results are interesting. What would also be interesting is measuring the penetration in the steel plate the round created, and yes, were talking thousands of an inch. But would it turn out the higher momentum of .45ACP causes more movement of the plate, but the higher kinetic energy of 9mm causes more penetration into the surface of the metal?
 

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Love 1911 .45s. Cost of ammo has played a large part in my shooting more 9mm - also double stack capacity for defense. Everything I own works well with JHP. Later designs also offered attractive options.
I enjoy shooting my 1911's - & am glad I got to know my 9mm Hi Power clones.
Now that I am 76, I am favoring smaller DA/SA steel pistols in 9x18mm for carry, & a CZ - 75B clone night-time home companion, + a "Braced 9mm STRIBOG" for more focused home defense - I'd been noticing my handguns getting heavier, & the Braced Stribog offers easier physical effort, + increased accuracy with its green laser sight. I have taken full advantage of new developments in sporting equipment that I like. I enjoy it, & feel very well prepared.
 

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I was making the reference from memory off NATO or military standard.
I agree, most commercial 9mm is a little slower and most commercial .45 is a little faster.
I also seem to remember looking at the numbers and even reading somewhere, that NATO 9mm is hotter than standard commercial but it is not as hot as +P, and the muzzle velocities reflect that.

The metal plate example is interesting. Although I think we all agree a round should be judged by the damage it does to a human being over the ability to knock a metal plate off a railroad tie, as to its effectiveness. The results are interesting. What would also be interesting is measuring the penetration in the steel plate the round created, and yes, were talking thousands of an inch. But would it turn out the higher momentum of .45ACP causes more movement of the plate, but the higher kinetic energy of 9mm causes more penetration into the surface of the metal?
Not energy by itself, but velocity. You could have a 44 magnum and 223 with similar energies, but which one will penetrate steel and kevlar better? Depending on bullet construction, they will have different effects on soft targets. With pistols, the velocity range probably isn't high enough to cause the massive tissue damage rifles can do, so what you have left is hemorrhaging effect and whatever tissue damage can be done. Shot placement is a little more critical. I mean, if I shot someone with my 444 Marlin with a solid hit to anywhere in the torso, my guess is they won't make it. a 9mm or 45 you want to tighten up to stop(first deer I shot with the 444 was at 40 yards. Deer was uphill, Hit behind the front leg, took out two ribs, nothing left in the chest cavity and exited the shoulder. Tool the top of the humorous out with blood and bone spray 10' beyond the deer. The deer lifted on impact and did ass over tea kettle down the hill. 265 hornady FP at 2300). Given equal bullet designs and relative pressures, I'll go bigger.
 

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Not energy by itself, but velocity. You could have a 44 magnum and 223 with similar energies, but which one will penetrate steel and kevlar better? Depending on bullet construction, they will have different effects on soft targets. With pistols, the velocity range probably isn't high enough to cause the massive tissue damage rifles can do, so what you have left is hemorrhaging effect and whatever tissue damage can be done. Shot placement is a little more critical. I mean, if I shot someone with my 444 Marlin with a solid hit to anywhere in the torso, my guess is they won't make it. a 9mm or 45 you want to tighten up to stop(first deer I shot with the 444 was at 40 yards. Deer was uphill, Hit behind the front leg, took out two ribs, nothing left in the chest cavity and exited the shoulder. Tool the top of the humorous out with blood and bone spray 10' beyond the deer. The deer lifted on impact and did ass over tea kettle down the hill. 265 hornady FP at 2300). Given equal bullet designs and relative pressures, I'll go bigger.
I agree with everything you say, BUT,
Energy includes both Velocity and Mass
Both Momentum and Kinetic Energy is not mass or velocity by itself
Momentum is simply the product of Mass and Velocity
Kinetic Energy is halving the Mass and Squaring the Velocity
Thus you just can't say its not the energy by itself, its the velocity, cause the Kinetic Energy is very much the velocity and what little effect the difference the mass in the bullet has.

When you're talking pistols vs pistols, you're talking a small difference between Kinetic Energies
When you're talking pistols vs rifles, you're talking about magnitudes difference between Velocities with Kinetic Energy increasing at a geometric rate

So if you look at bullets and the effects just as a matter of momentum, you'd be right, momentum doesn't tell the story, a bullet 1/3 the mass but 3 times the velocity will do way more damage, yet they have the same amount of momentum.
But if you look at it as Kinetic Energy, you'd wrong, a bullet 1/3 the mass but 3 times the velocity will have 50% more kinetic energy. The Kinetic energy does tell the story, cause it tells the true effect of velocity.
And comparing pistols and rifles you see velocities much greater than a magnitude of 3 and that Kinetic Energy goes up by the square.

Don't forget the physics concept of Conservation of Energy, it doesn't come out of no where, and it doesn't disappear. Bullets don't create more damage because energy comes out of no where to cause it. Basically, in this long discussion, we may be misapplying the concepts of thousands of years of physics learning, but we are not disproving any of that 1000 of years of physics learning.

It seems to me:
Momentum is what knocks a steel plate over.
Kinetic Energy is what creates penetration and damage in a wound channel and beyond the wound channel.
 

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I agree with everything you say, BUT,
Energy includes both Velocity and Mass
Both Momentum and Kinetic Energy is not mass or velocity by itself
Momentum is simply the product of Mass and Velocity
Kinetic Energy is halving the Mass and Squaring the Velocity
Thus you just can't say its not the energy by itself, its the velocity, cause the Kinetic Energy is very much the velocity and what little effect the difference the mass in the bullet has.

When you're talking pistols vs pistols, you're talking a small difference between Kinetic Energies
When you're talking pistols vs rifles, you're talking about magnitudes difference between Velocities with Kinetic Energy increasing at a geometric rate

So if you look at bullets and the effects just as a matter of momentum, you'd be right, momentum doesn't tell the story, a bullet 1/3 the mass but 3 times the velocity will do way more damage, yet they have the same amount of momentum.
But if you look at it as Kinetic Energy, you'd wrong, a bullet 1/3 the mass but 3 times the velocity will have 50% more kinetic energy. The Kinetic energy does tell the story, cause it tells the true effect of velocity.
And comparing pistols and rifles you see velocities much greater than a magnitude of 3 and that Kinetic Energy goes up by the square.

Don't forget the physics concept of Conservation of Energy, it doesn't come out of no where, and it doesn't disappear. Bullets don't create more damage because energy comes out of no where to cause it. Basically, in this long discussion, we may be misapplying the concepts of thousands of years of physics learning, but we are not disproving any of that 1000 of years of physics learning.

It seems to me:
Momentum is what knocks a steel plate over.
Kinetic Energy is what creates penetration and damage in a wound channel and beyond the wound channel.
Penetration is also affected by bullet design. There are instances where lower velocities have greater penetration given the same bullet, even with pistols and some some bullet designs whistle through two gel blocks and others stop in 10" or less with the same cartridge.
 

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Penetration is also affected by bullet design. There are instances where lower velocities have greater penetration given the same bullet, even with pistols and some some bullet designs whistle through two gel blocks and others stop in 10" or less with the same cartridge.
That is true.....
And what I've argued in the 9mm vs .45ACP arguments....

These differences are how the round dissipates the kinetic energy....

I'd agree with you, that Kinetic Energy is not the sole factor in the lethality of the round. I have seen folks argue this.

Then you have the effect of the very high velocities causes a bullet to tumble as it decelerates in the flesh and fragments that turns one wound channel into several to half a dozen wound channels.....

Keep in mind....
If the round passes through the body and doesn't just roll down the other side by gravity, then less than its full kinetic energy was applied to the body.....

What I am distilling from this and past discussions about what makes a round more lethal or effective, is:

The damage a round will do is a very complicated formula of many variables, so many it is impossible to predict accurately, but of all those variables Kinetic Energy is the overall biggest factor by far.....

The only thing I have a problem with what you said, is a nuisance, that its not the energy alone its the velocity. We did a lot of talking about Momentum, and in that sense its very true its not the momentum its the velocity, my only point is Kinetic Energy very much tells the story of what velocity does...

I may have started us down this rabbit hole, although its not a bad rabbit hole to go down, we started talking about 9mm 1911's. I brought up the question if 9mm has more kinetic energy than .45ACP (which is not universally true, they are close and some .45ACP has more than some 9mm) how come it has less felt recoil than.45ACP.... we went down momentum vs K.E. and then what makes a round more lethal...
 

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That is true.....
And what I've argued in the 9mm vs .45ACP arguments....

These differences are how the round dissipates the kinetic energy....

I'd agree with you, that Kinetic Energy is not the sole factor in the lethality of the round. I have seen folks argue this.

Then you have the effect of the very high velocities causes a bullet to tumble as it decelerates in the flesh and fragments that turns one wound channel into several to half a dozen wound channels.....

Keep in mind....
If the round passes through the body and doesn't just roll down the other side by gravity, then less than its full kinetic energy was applied to the body.....

What I am distilling from this and past discussions about what makes a round more lethal or effective, is:

The damage a round will do is a very complicated formula of many variables, so many it is impossible to predict accurately, but of all those variables Kinetic Energy is the overall biggest factor by far.....

The only thing I have a problem with what you said, is a nuisance, that its not the energy alone its the velocity. We did a lot of talking about Momentum, and in that sense its very true its not the momentum its the velocity, my only point is Kinetic Energy very much tells the story of what velocity does...

I may have started us down this rabbit hole, although its not a bad rabbit hole to go down, we started talking about 9mm 1911's. I brought up the question if 9mm has more kinetic energy than .45ACP (which is not universally true, they are close and some .45ACP has more than some 9mm) how come it has less felt recoil than.45ACP.... we went down momentum vs K.E. and then what makes a round more lethal...
There's always 45 Super. :)
 
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