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9mm or 45 ACP

6K views 46 replies 28 participants last post by  bluzman 
#1 ·
Hi,
I am new to the forum so forgive me if this is an old topic--did a search and found no threads...and forgive me for "blasphemy" suggesting a 9mm 1911. I am most interested in whatever will be most practical and effective.

So I have been a 1911 fan for years, and a 45 ACP fan. Never did I think I would ever consider a 9mm, but after reading the latest FBI caliber report I am seriously considering 9mm. Another big factor for me is the fact that 9mm is much cheaper and I sold all my reloading stuff several years back (which I kind of regret, but that's another story).

I am a very good shooter with my current Kimber CDP 1911 in 45 ACP. I am considering moving to a 9mm Kimber Aegis or Dan Wesson Guardian. The cheaper ammo, lower recoil and therefore faster potential follow up shots are appealing to me. An extra round doesn't hurt either.

On the other hand I really like the feel of a 1911 and imagine that a 9mm version will have a slimmer grip profile. I am not sure if it will feel as good in the hand. Furthermore, I am not totally and completely sold on the whole 9mm vs. 45 issue. If handgun "stopping power" is truly a myth like the FBI report states and if most gun fights requite 2-3 rounds to incapacitate a bad guy, then would a 9mm 1911 offer a potentially better platform (disregarding the blasphemy of a 9mm 1911)?

Curious what your thoughts are.

thanks
Matt
 
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#2 ·
There is no practical performance difference between the main pistol calibers. A 9mm will be just as effective as a .45ACP so I think it's smart to consider price, capacity, and recoil differences.

That said, I'm sure that the rest of the replies will disagree and praise the .45 because we're on a 1911 forum after all.
 
#3 ·
Yeah....

I am starting to believe that the difference in effectiveness may be a factor, and that a 9mm might be a more practical choice if we put emotions and prejudices aside.

On the other hand I am not sure if there may be other factors I have not considered. I have never shot a 9mm in a 1911. While the recoil is "less" perhaps its sharper/snappier recoil will not be as much as an advantage over 45 as I would have thought.

Also not sure about the difference in grip size.

Last is that I haven't seen much on the internet refuting the FBI report. I am sure there is an alternate perspective and I would be curious to hear it. Just seems like such a drastic change to what I have been told for so many years.

Matt
 
#5 ·
On the other hand I am not sure if there may be other factors I have not considered. I have never shot a 9mm in a 1911. While the recoil is "less" perhaps its sharper/snappier recoil will not be as much as an advantage over 45 as I would have thought.

Also not sure about the difference in grip size.
again, unless it's a Springfield EMP (slightly different/smaller frame)
The two you're considering (Kimber and DW) as well as all the 1911 manufactures use the same frame for 9, 38 super, 40 and 45 cals.
There some some differences in the way the slide is machined as well as feed ramp geometry on some...but for all practical purpose, the frame is the same


recoil on an all steel 9mm 1911 is quite tame .
never owned an aluminum alloy frame 9mm 1911, so can't say...other than I'm sure it's less than an alloy frame 45


..L.T.A.
 
#4 ·
On the other hand I really like the feel of a 1911 and imagine that a 9mm version will have a slimmer grip profile
nosir ...they use the same frame

I have no interest in getting into the "caliber war" debate at this time
I'll leave that for others

I will say, if I was to go 9mm for pistol that's primarily for defense, it wouldn't be a 9mm 1911
It would be one of the hi-cap 9's like a CZ, M&P, gWock, Sig, HK, etc

but that's just "me"


..L.T.A.
 
#7 ·
I will agree that the 9mm is as effective as a .45. OK that hurt.

A .45 punches a hole that is 45/100 of an inch in diameter.
A 9mm punches a hole 35/100 of an inch in diameter.

My eyes are not as good as they used to be. The bigger holes are easier for me to see and aim at for the follow up shot.
 
#8 ·
JMHO-- it is the # of holes created and where they are located that matters not the size of the holes created

I love our Ed brown 1911 in 9mm-- I am also thinking of getting either a WC, a NHC or another Ed in 9mm-- they are fun. That said, my wife and I both love traditional 45 acp 1911s especially now that ammo prices are closer to 30 cents a round(and 9mm is 20 cents a round).OBVIOUSLY I am NOT a traditionalist about these 1911s I just buy and shoot what I like--luckily for me, my wife is like minded


buy, shoot ,enjoy
 
#12 ·
I love my 1911 (and pattern guns) especially in 45.

That said, my next one will be a 1911 in 9mm as I need to lower the felt recoil (getting old) and it will be cheaper to shoot in matches where I can't recover my brass 100% of the time.

I reload and if I can recover all of my brass the cost difference is less than $0.06/round including bullet, primer & powder...not enough to justify a new gun.

But, as much as I love my 1911's and have no qualms over their reliability, my self-defense gun is a Glock 17. Utterly reliable, no external safeties and 17+1 capacity in a fairly light gun...light enough for me to concealed carry.
 
#14 ·
I disagree, bigger hole, heavier bullet has the edge no matter how you shake it. The 9MM 1911 gun is really fun and kicks a heck of a lot less than a .45. I bought one for play and IDPA, I love to shoot it but it ain't a carry gun. I have a 642 and an LC9 for carry, prefer the 642 as it's lighter and faster to get out of my pocket. I also have a lightweight commander for when we go to open carry in Jan. I will carry it some.
 
#15 ·
Don't think anyone's mentioned it yet, so I'll cautiously --with careful wording -- give it a go:

Many current manufacture 9mm 1911s are very, very reliable. This cannot be disputed. Nonetheless, if one begins to deviate from optimal conditions (due to wear, poorly matched mags, springs, or ammo,etc.), a 45acp 1911 is generally going to be more forgiving of deviations than a 9mm 1911. Please note that I'm not saying 9mm 1911s are less reliable; I am only saying that they are often less tolerant of deviations from the ideal.

On the other hand, most modern polymer 9mm designs, as well as steel/alloy designs such as the M9, are designed from the ground up around the 9mm. Many will run well even if the user purposefully attempts to introduce malfunctions via limp-twisting (for example).

All of this is another reason why I agree with Cappi's excellent post.
 
#16 ·
There is nothing better than an all steel 5" 1911 in 45acp as far as shootability, reliability, and durability goes. For packing while lightly dressed it is a little less than ideal.

For a lightweight carry gun I like the idea of 9mm, but the 1911 is not the most suitable weapon for the caliber. Advancements in magazines and ramped barrel designs make the most of it. There's a few CCO, commander, and the Springfield EMP model that make it work. They should offer less problems with frame cracking that the 45 versions suffer a bit prematurely, though most of us do not shoot enough for this to be a worry. Being fun to shoot and easy to use can't hurt.

The FBI report is not a glowing endorsement. It's reads more like an excuse for agents having a hard time with existing weapons. The best 9mm loads can equal some 40 or 45 loads but the best 40 or 45 loads will surpass the best 9mm loads in performance. The tradeoff is less rounds and a bit more recoil. That said, shot placement is #1. In the end it's what you're most comfortable with, willing to pack, and can shoot proficiently.
 
#18 ·
I truly believe the FBI report is propaganda, to help arm a people with less capable firearms for when the chips are down. I don't believe you will actually see FBI agents carrying a 9 mm, unless it is a female agent. However, my dad was in law-enforcement, and delighted in taking my mother to the range to shoot his 44 magnum, which his buddies were scared to fire.
 
#20 · (Edited)
Agree with Rick A. and Veneto as to the FBI study.

9mm is a perfectly decent SD round, but the FBI had to do a lot of hard work with organising the data in order to "prove" what they were trying to prove. It might have been better to simply say that the 9mm is a sound choice for SD and leave it at that.
 
#21 ·
A good friend of mine is an emergency room surgeon and use to go with all the swat teams on their assault/entry's from his locality, and HE said that if he was working on someone that was shot, he hoped it was with a 9mm and if HE was doing the shooting, it would be with a .45......so......again, shot placement is the number one factor in my book.
 
#22 ·
9mm for self defense.....

Due to better powders that give high velocity with less pressure, the 9mm has become better for self defense than ever before. I would not feel undergunned if I carried any of my 9mm guns. If desired, I could carry my hi capacity STI Eagle in 9mm, which holds 17 +1, and carry a 140 mm extra mag that holds 21 rounds.

However, my normal carry is a 1911 Commander in .38 super. I built and made the gun to my specs., using an STI fully supported W/N ramped bull barrel. My self defense loads are equivalent to a 125 gr. JHP .357 magnum round. Even with these hot loads, the all steel Commander absorbs recoil better than the polymer guns, and allows fast and accurate follow up shots. I use a 25# mainspring and a Commander length 18# recoil spring. I use 10 round mags, so I have 10+1 in the gun plus one spare 10 round mag on my opposite hip.

If trying to decide between a 1911 in any of the major calibers such as 9mm, .38 super, .40 S&W, or a .45acp..... shoot what works best for you.....any of these calibers in a good self defense load will do the job if you do yours....which is to get good shot placement...! :rock:
 
#23 ·
The following is worth less than 2 cents, but this is what I was thinking:

I was looking and looking because I REALLY wanted a Kimber 1911!
Haven't been shooting very long (the last year), and never in the military or LE.

The more I read, and the more I reviewed, and the more videos I watched, I settled on the capacity of 9mm (15+1) p226.

Yes, its a "bigger" gun, but at 6'2" and 270, I'm not too worried about hiding the extra size.

I am worried about capacity! My next gun will be a 1911, but thats because I want a range queen - I WILL continue to carry 9mm.
 
#26 ·
The following is worth less than 2 cents, but this is what I was thinking:

I was looking and looking because I REALLY wanted a Kimber 1911!
Haven't been shooting very long (the last year), and never in the military or LE.

The more I read, and the more I reviewed, and the more videos I watched, I settled on the capacity of 9mm (15+1) p226.

Yes, its a "bigger" gun, but at 6'2" and 270, I'm not too worried about hiding the extra size.

I am worried about capacity! My next gun will be a 1911, but thats because I want a range queen - I WILL continue to carry 9mm.
Based on what you've written , you seem to have a new shooter's perspective.... perhaps your focus should be on developing your skill set rather than the magazine capacity. Your first and foremost concern should be YOUR ability to get rounds on target, quickly and effectively. In another thread about IDPA v USPSA, someone said that there's no timer in a gunfight, so gun games can't be 'realistic'... while nobody's recording split times, there most certainly is a clock in a gunfight. When it runs out, somebody is dead or incapacitated... if its you, you LOST.

If you think you need 15+1 to improve your odds of getting hits, there's a fatal flaw in your thought process- actually 2. First, every miss gives your opponent more time and opportunity to do you harm. Its cliché, but you can't miss fast enough to win a gunfight. Second, each miss has potential criminal and civil liability attached... if me or mine get hit because you decided that 'spray and pray' is a valid tactic, you'll be living in a cardboard box or 6x8 cell...

My intent isn't to be hyper critical, but to offer a different perspective, a different thought process. There's much more to selecting a defensive pistol that magazine capacity.
 
#24 ·
BlueSky, I think you made a good decision for your purposes ... and consistent with probably most of the input here in this thread.
 
#25 ·
All else equal, a slightly bigger hole will be slightly better. However, you should also factor in capacity, recoil management, and cost, all of which favor the 9mm. Keep in mind that it's accepted as a reliable self defense round - it's not like we're talking about a .22LR. I wouldn't even really feel undergunned with a .380 except that it has no advantages over 9mm really.
 
#31 · (Edited)
Capacity will never take the place of good techniques or accuracy. But in the wrong situation you might want the extra rounds. It's best to have both.
This ^^^^

No need to use the extra capacity if the first few rounds get the job done, but why start by giving up the possible advantage of extra rounds? Those who argue that 7-8 rounds are enough seem to build in the tacit assumption that there will be only one assailant, and/or that everyone trains to SEAL proficiency and is able to put the first round in the eye of an assailant at 25 yds. Proficiency with a firearm ranges from world class to terrible, with most somewhere in the middle. Usefulness of extra capacity also depends on what purpose the firearm serves. If primarily an HD role, if you are awakened in the middle of the night in your skivvies or less by an intruder(s), you will likely not have time to strap on your gun belt with your six extra mags; what is in the gun may very likely be all you get. When carrying, the situation is different; you are presumably wide awake, fully dressed (with gun belt and extra mags), and more situationally aware.
 
#32 ·
Thanks for all the replies. Very helpful information. Please note that I am not trying to start an emotional caliber war, but rather to hear objective points of view for both sides of the argument. That seems to be what people are providing--thanks.

Good points about carrying a higher cap gun like a Glock if you go with 9mm. I do have a Glock 40 cal. It has a 13 round capacity and lower recoil than the 1911, but I like my 1911 better. I shoot it better and it is slimmer to carry.

More rounds may be useful in certain situations, but for the average person in a self defense CCW situation (not a police shoot out or a military setting) I would think that 8 or 9 rounds would be enough. I may be wrong though.

Since I like the 1911 better and shoot better with it, I would rather carry it and would rather carry the gun that I shoot the most and am most used to. Why practice and train with a weapon that is different from the one you will carry (for those who like to shoot the 1911 at the range but carry a Glock or other hi capacity pistol).

I want to train like I fight and make my primary range gun and carry gun the same.

I am just trying to see both sides of the argument clearly. I am not emotionally attached to any particular solution. Although in some ways I would like to come to the conclusion that the 45 is better since it's what I currently have, and in others I want to hear that the 9 is better since the ammo is cheaper.

I do agree with many of the critical comments about the fbi report. It does seem a lot like it was a hypothesis that they were looking to justify. I also can't completely buy their conclusion because they don't state what any of the potential trade offs are. With any decision there are trade offs you need to weigh. They only state the advantages of the 9mm and none of the drawbacks, nor any of the advantages of the 45. The 9mm may be better but I want to know where it is lacking as well so that I can make my own decision based on my criteria and needs.

Matt
 
#36 · (Edited)
Since I like the 1911 better and shoot better with it, I would rather carry it and would rather carry the gun that I shoot the most and am most used to.


I am just trying to see both sides of the argument clearly.

Although in some ways I would like to come to the conclusion that the 45 is better since it's what I currently have,

and in others I want to hear that the 9 is better since the ammo is cheaper.

that's what you're looking for?? ....well this is easy then.
Buy a 1911 (I'd personally choose Dan Wesson over Kimber any day)

to the caliber....

45 is better because it's a bigger, fatter, heavier bone smashing slug.

9mm is better cause it's cheaper


they'll both poke holes, tear flesh and make things bleed
as has been said, shot placement counts most

pick your poison and don't overthink it


..L.T.A.
 
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