[SWinokur]

I fly about once a month for work and have been doing so for about the last two years. I have NEVER had an airline employee tell me to put my declaration inside my locked firearm case. As I stated in my earlier post if your declaration is inside your locked case, and TSA conducts a secondary search of your bag after you check in, they have no way to see the tag because they don't have the key.


Please provide a cite for your position.

 

[silvercorvette]

Exactly. It doesn't matter if its a bag in a bag. The declaration/affidavit goes INSIDE the case, with the gun.

Its been that way for at least 12 or 13 years.

I remember because I got into an argument with a check in clerk at JFK when I was going to visit my ex-father-in-law to do some hunting about exactly this issue. A supervisor set the clerk straight. I married her in 95, divorced in 97. So it was sometime in that time frame.

One other thing. I don't check guns in at the curb. I wait in the often crappy, terrible line at the ticket counter.

This was the first and only time I flew with guns after 9-11. When I moved to TX I drove there with some guns and kept some guns in my safe in NY and some guns in my safe in TX. I called ahead to the airport for instructions as the the proper way to check in. I was told that they had a special check in at the curb. They do not want you to enter the building with guns. After all this discussion I am beginning to think that they just may have did the same check in at the curb as the do inside and put the same tag on the suitcase but they do it to prevent you from bring a gun inside the building. Now if that is true and there was no special identifying tag on the suitcase then why was my suitcase broken into. Was the person doing the check in involved in something illegal. The people that broke into the suitcase were only interested in my gun because after they discovered the guns were in a locked case they did not bother with anything else. So what tipped them off that my suit case had a gun.

This thread has been going on for a few days and now it has gotten me curious enough to look for the suitcase to see what tag (if any ) are still on the case. I have to winterize my camper this week end and if I have time when I get done I am going to search for the case to see if it can help answer some questions.
I know for a fact that if you step inside the JFK airport building in NY with a gun and try checking in you will wind up in a world of hurt.

 

[SWinokur]

One other thing. I don't check guns in at the curb. I wait in the often crappy, terrible line at the ticket counter.

You cannot check at weapon at the curb.. Federal regulations require that you are required to turn your weapon over to the CARRIER and declare it. The staffing of many curb side check ins are contractors are not airline employees, therefore it's illegal.

Cite from 27 CFR SS 478.31

§ 478.31 Delivery by common or contract carrier.

(a) No person shall knowingly deliver or cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce to any person other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector, any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped: Provided, That any passenger who owns or legally possesses a firearm or ammunition being transported aboard any common or contract carrier for movement with the passenger in interstate or foreign commerce may deliver said firearm or ammunition into the custody of the pilot, captain, conductor or operator of such common or contract carrier for the duration of that trip without violating any provision of this part.

 

[silvercorvette]

You cannot check at weapon at the curb.. Federal regulations require that you are required to turn your weapon over to the CARRIER and declare it. The staffing of many curb side check ins are contractors are not airline employees, therefore it's illegal.

Cite from 27 CFR SS 478.31

This was four years ago and my memory can be off on some details but I am 100% sure about being instructed to check in at the curb. The reason I am sure is that I did not know what I was doing and how to properly fly with guns so I called the airport to ask about the proper procedure. I was told what to do and I checked in at the curb because they instructed me to.

 

[SWinokur]

They do not want you to enter the building with guns.

Please provide the cite for this. It is perfectly legal to enter the terminal with a firearm if it is packed according to TSA and Fed regulations. Please read my cite about the illegailty of affixing a tag to a suitcase containing a firearm It may be a coincidence that your bag was opened. TSA has opened my luggage several times after I checked in but they leave a card inside your luggage to inform you. They also will cut TSA locks off your suitcase even when they are supposed to have the key. This is why I stopped putting TSA locks on my luggage.

I know for a fact that if you step inside the JFK airport building in NY with a gun and try checking in you will wind up in a world of hurt.

Again not true. I fly though JFK, Laguardia and Trenton all the time. There have been 2 court cases involving travel under FOPA and both courts affirmed it is legal. One involved a traveler going from JFK to Laguardia and NYPD or Port Authority police got slapped down big time by the Court. This case is on the NRA web site. The other involved a traveler from UT whose connecting flight from NJ to PA was canceled and then took his luggage and went to a hotel for the night. He was arrested when he checked back in. He appealed to the 3rd Circuit Court of Appeals and was denied. The court's reason was he he"had access" to his luggage while in the hotel, thereby removing FOPA protection. They never held it was illegal to carry into the terminal under FOPA and the and TSA regs.

See Revell vs Port Authority of New York and New Jersey

LINK HERE

 

[SWinokur]

This was four years ago and my memory can be off on some details but I am 100% sure about being instructed to check in at the curb. The reason I am sure is that I did not know what I was doing and how to properly fly with guns so I called the airport to ask about the proper procedure. I was told what to do and I checked in at the curb because they instructed me to.

I have never been told this but perhaps if there are airline employees at curb check in it would be legal. I fly out of Dulles and National and their curb check in is staffed with contractors making curb side check in illegal under Federal regs.

You must declare the firearm to the CARRIER as per my previous cite

 

[dcmdon]

You cannot check at weapon at the curb.. Federal regulations require that you are required to turn your weapon over to the CARRIER and declare it. The staffing of many curb side check ins are contractors are not airline employees, therefore it's illegal.

Cite from 27 CFR SS 478.31

I was making reference to Silvercorvette's comment that when he had the incident he checked the gun at the curb. He's since clarified that it was not given to one of the contractor sky caps.

 

[dcmdon]

Swinokur,

You are both right as far as NY and FOPA.

First, the problem only exists with handguns.
Long guns are not a problem.

The problem is that the Port Authority (The semi-public entity that manages NY's airports, ports, bridges and tunnels) police are under orders to ignore FOPA.

So if you show up at a NY airport with a handgun, chances are you will be arrested.

The charges will eventually be dropped. But it will cost you money and travel time to NY to defend yourself.

This will continue until someone files a civil rights suit against the port authority and it costs them dearly. Otherwise they will continue the policy.

The most egregious case was of a man who was not even planning to fly to NY. His plane was diverted to LGA for weather. (Lets pretend he was flying from FL to NH for now) When he showed back up at LGA check in counter with his gun, he was arrested.

The safe passage portion of FOPA is ignored as a matter of policy at the Port Authority.

Going into JFK with a gun to check is on my list of thing to do once my kids are out of the house. That and setting fire to surveillance cameras in New Haven.

Also, I've flown out of LGA and Hartford since 9/11 and have never been asked to check a gun at the curb. I really don't like that.
Actually the biggest hassle I had was in New Orleans. I was flying back home after a hunting and sporting clays trip. I had a Benelli Super Black Eagle II in one case and a Beretta 687 in another.
They started giving me a lot of crap when I tried to insure the Beretta for $3500. "how do we know its worth that much?"
Stupid. It was like it was their first time doing this kind of thing.

 

[SWinokur]

After the NRA cited lawsuit the Court directed both the PA and NYPD to cease the arrest of travelers traveling legally under FOPA. I know of no arrest since this court directive was issued. I would not want to be a test case however.

 

[dcmdon]

swinokur,

Has anyone tried to fly with a handgun out of JFK, EWR, or LGA??
If nobody's been arrested because nobody's flown with a handgun, then it doesn't mean anything.

I'm not sure you are right, but I hope that you are.

The problem is that they won't ever let a test case get to trial. The traveller is arrested and his guns are taken. Then the charges are dropped. So it never gets to court.

If there was any assurance of a trial, I'm sure some NY gunowners would volunteer.

Don

 

[SWinokur]

The most egregious case was of a man who was not even planning to fly to NY. His plane was diverted to LGA for weather. (Lets pretend he was flying from FL to NH for now) When he showed back up at LGA check in counter with his gun, he was arrested. .

According to the 3rd Circuit Court of Appeals he lost his FOPA protection when he took control of his suitcase again. If I get stuck in the airport because of a cancellation or I am diverted, I am not taking control of my luggage. I will ask TSA or the airline to retain it, preventing an arrest due to a loss of FOPA protection. (fingers crossed)

 

[dcmdon]

This is kindof off topic but in November 2001 I ferried a single engine plane back from Seattle to Connecticut.

I had a big duffel full of survival gear including knives, a .22 rifle, first aid kit and all kinds of stuff. I was a little nervous about it only 2 months after 9/11.

I was surprised when I had no trouble whatsoever. The woman at the check in said a lot of hunters go out west with rifles. It was pretty standard.

When i got to the security check in it was a whole 'nother story.

It seems that my carry-on containing an aviation handheld radio, mapping GPS and a full set of sectional charts from Seattle to New York FREAKED them out.

To make matters worse I had been letting the weather guide my departure date, so I had just purchased my ONE WAY ticket THAT DAY.

I was pushed up 3 levels of questioning. In all cases they were polite but definitely rattled. I finally asked them if they were done and they allowed me on the flight. But they must have tipped off the flight attendants because they stopped by my seat to chat me up and assess my status about every 15 minutes all the way from Hartford to Seattle.

Don

 

[lankyyankee]

What???

So, my question is this about arriving in NY. The example given of the fella who got arrested after his flight got delayed and diverted to NY, if the suitcase or case holding the weapon is not supposed to marked as having a weapon, how do the authorities know you have a weapon? Do they consult the computer or data from the computer and simply wait at the luggage carousel and then arrest you? That seems wrong to me. Mighty, mighty strange. It seems they should give you the opportunity to leave your luggage in safe-keeping to avoid arrest. So, the choice is get arrested or leave your luggage? What a jacked up system!
Anybody know how the authorities knew they possessed a firearm? I have flown many times and the luggage claim area seems deserted of all but travelers.

 

[silvercorvette]

The problem with JFK airport is that is it is part of the universe controlled by mayor Bloomberg know as NY city. Bring a hand gun into NY city is what is going to be more of a problem than airport rules. I haven't bothered checking recently but when I retired in 1990 and got a NY state pistol permit I also had to get a permit to carry in NY city. I am not sure but I don't think that an addition NY city permit is still required in addition to a NY state license but just keep in mind that JFK airport is part of NY city so there may be issues with NY city laws. Last time I dropped off someone at JFK was over 6 years ago and I remember seeing some gun warning signs so I as much as I hatted to do it I left my gun in in the car to avoid any problems.

Maybe others have had no problems ay JFK, I just didn't want to take a chance.

PS NJ is also very anti gun, I remember some wrote about having problems flying into a NJ airport.

 

[SWinokur]

Airline personnel at the aforementioned airports call for LE to question the traveler at check in, not luggage pickup.

You can't fix stupid (without a big lawsuit)

 

[Trailboss60]

Anybody know how the authorities knew they possessed a firearm? I have flown many times and the luggage claim area seems deserted of all but travelers.

Total speculation on my part but....
It seems to me that if the TSA does scan checked luggage that the image of a gun would end up on the display and so would an identifying feature of a coded TSA tag?

Having said that i doubt that checked luggage gets much of an inspection..probably pretty random.

 

[SWinokur]

This is kindof off topic but in November 2001 I ferried a single engine plane back from Seattle to Connecticut.

I had a big duffel full of survival gear including knives, a .22 rifle, first aid kit and all kinds of stuff. I was a little nervous about it only 2 months after 9/11.

I was surprised when I had no trouble whatsoever. The woman at the check in said a lot of hunters go out west with rifles. It was pretty standard.

When i got to the security check in it was a whole 'nother story.

It seems that my carry-on containing an aviation handheld radio, mapping GPS and a full set of sectional charts from Seattle to New York FREAKED them out.

To make matters worse I had been letting the weather guide my departure date, so I had just purchased my ONE WAY ticket THAT DAY.

I was pushed up 3 levels of questioning. In all cases they were polite but definitely rattled. I finally asked them if they were done and they allowed me on the flight. But they must have tipped off the flight attendants because they stopped by my seat to chat me up and assess my status about every 15 minutes all the way from Hartford to Seattle.

Don

At least you didn't have your JEPS with you. right? That would have been worse.

 

[SWinokur]

Total speculation on my part but....
It seems to me that if the TSA does scan checked luggage that the image of a gun would end up on the display and so would an identifying feature of a coded TSA tag?

Having said that i doubt that checked luggage gets much of an inspection..probably pretty random.

The tags are provided by the airlines and are not coded. And not visible on an x-ray. They are just plain paper

 

[dcmdon]

So, my question is this about arriving in NY. The example given of the fella who got arrested after his flight got delayed and diverted to NY, if the suitcase or case holding the weapon is not supposed to marked as having a weapon, how do the authorities know you have a weapon? Do they consult the computer or data from the computer and simply wait at the luggage carousel and then arrest you? That seems wrong to me. Mighty, mighty strange. It seems they should give you the opportunity to leave your luggage in safe-keeping to avoid arrest. So, the choice is get arrested or leave your luggage? What a jacked up system!
Anybody know how the authorities knew they possessed a firearm? I have flown many times and the luggage claim area seems deserted of all but travelers.

When he went back to JFK the next morning to get on the flight to get home he had to re-check his bags. Thats when the trouble happened.

 

[dcmdon]

At least you didn't have your JEPS with you. right? That would have been worse.

I have a similar set of books called airguides. They are just like a Jep guide but are smaller, only about 6x6. It works out better for me in my plane which is a tandem 2 seater so you have to keep the book on your lap.

They were in my flight bag also. Along with a couple of Surefire lights.