1911Forum banner
1 - 20 of 20 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
15 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi forum members!
On my quest to get a decent WW2 1911 here in Europe, I stumbled across a USS 1911 up for auction.
Unfortunately, we are in a Covid situation here and i will not be able to inspect the gun prior to the auction. I downloaded the photos from the web site, hope its allowed to post them here. I have no option to take pictures myself.
On a first look, it seems to be pretty good. However, after some research, I found a few things, that put me off. I have a feeling, that this is a Frankengun, yet close to the original. Take a look.
  • SNo 1057236
  • a double space M 1911 A1 U.S. ARMY stamping
  • No P proof stamp on top of the receiver
So far so good, now the fishy part.
  • No RCD proof stamp below the slide release, no stamp at all
  • The slide release thumb rest not checkered but with linear grooves
  • The thumb safety not checkered and wrong shape
  • The marking USS and all letters on the slide look milled or cut, and not rolled or stamped. Additionally, the letters look very crisp. Far to crisp for stamped letters, which are about 80 years in use.
  • The pistol looks sandblasted and parkerized. Was a pistol with this early serial number treated this way?
I will get some information on the markings of the barrel on Monday.
OK, what's your opinion? Genuine, US Army repair, or total fake? If genuine, how do the german proof markings all over the pistol affect the value?

Thank you!

Air gun Trigger Gun barrel Gun accessory Wood stain
Air gun Trigger Revolver Gun barrel Wood
Automotive exterior Auto part Bumper Bicycle part Tints and shades

Grey Gas Electronic device Bumper Rectangle

Rectangle Automotive exterior Auto part Tints and shades Gas
Gun barrel Gun accessory Bag Rectangle Metal
 

Attachments

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,172 Posts
Given the relatively low serial number, the pistol would not have P proof marks on the slide or frame nor was the frame ordnance stamp applied to any USS pistols.
The pistol is parkerized and should be a Du-lite finish. The lack of the RCD inspector marking is alarming as are the slide markings which are completely fake. The slide stop and thumb safety are incorrect as you noted and the grips are wrong.
The European stamps and what appears to be an import marking are beyond my scope of knowledge. There is a forum member, classic12, who lives in Europe and is conversant with European markings. Perhaps he will comment.
I would not consider buying the pistol.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,432 Posts
Given the relatively low serial number, the pistol would not have P proof marks on the slide or frame nor was the frame ordnance stamp applied to any USS pistols.
The pistol is parkerized and should be a Du-lite finish. The lack of the RCD inspector marking is alarming as are the slide markings which are completely fake. The slide stop and thumb safety are incorrect as you noted and the grips are wrong.
The European stamps and what appears to be an import marking are beyond my scope of knowledge. There is a forum member, classic12, who lives in Europe and is conversant with European markings. Perhaps he will comment.
I would not consider buying the pistol.
I have two 1911 A1 with German markings

A Colt with German nitro proof, Munich shield and 1993 date, nicely and discreetly applied under the slide



An Ithaca with German nitro proof, Munich shield and KF date code (1995)



Seems this specimen has more recent markings, country or origin (US), German nitro proof, Cologne shield, 2008 date, DE for Deutschland / Germany, I don’t know what TRA stands for



Otherwise I agree that this gun is very fishy, I wouldn’t touch it
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,172 Posts
It's a good thing that making a roll stamp is so expensive, and bench top CNC machines are so cheap. The CNC is like a flytrap for scammers, they can't resist and once you see the difference you can't unsee it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
15 Posts
Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Thanks to you guys for all the fast replies!

I am aware of the german proof marks. Thanks CLASSIC12 for explaining them. I can possibly shed some light on the TRA stamp next to the german proof marks. I have found several documentations of demilitarized and/or deactivated guns in Germany which receive a dealer stamp to proof, that they were tested and released as deactivated, decorative guns. Most of them had been plugged, too. TRA can stand for Transarms, a dealer. Which after all alarming signs is the most alarming now. I believe somebody built a USS 1911 out of available parts.

I did not know, that the grips are also wrong.

Your inputs support my feeling, that this is a pistol put together to mimic a USS 1911.
I will not touch it.
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
75,876 Posts
It's a fake without a doubt.
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
75,876 Posts
I'm guessing the pistol was an Ithaca prior to its conversion into a fake US&S.
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
75,876 Posts
What's the cue that makes you think that?
The overall contours of the frame, plus the information provided suggests the small parts are largely Ithaca's.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,172 Posts
My brain housing group is not as sophisticated as yours.
Comparison of stan2's and the OPs examples suggest some finger cut differences, shape/length of the grip safety tang and maybe a some differences in the shape of the recoil spring housing.
I'll have to go into the safe, pull out an example of each manufacturers pistol and stare at the darned things.
The overall contours of the frame, plus the information provided suggests the small parts are largely Ithaca's.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
15 Posts
Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Thank you stan2 for showing us an original one. Now i am totally convinced, that this pistol is a fake. There are so many differences when you look closely. The curvature of the trigger cut out, the contours around the magazine release, the tapered, almost v-shaped side walls of the rollstamped letters on the slide, the thickness and contour of the beaver tail. The machining marks, overall surface treatment, etc. Nothing matches.

Fun fact, the pistol did already go up to 1400 Dollars, 14 days before the online auction ends.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
546 Posts
It's a good thing that making a roll stamp is so expensive, and bench top CNC machines are so cheap. The CNC is like a flytrap for scammers, they can't resist and once you see the difference you can't unsee it.
Indeed. See the fake Singer thread one page 1 here for more evidence of this.
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
75,876 Posts
How do those contours differ from Colt's??
Just one example...
Tool Wood Font Composite material Metal


If you stare at enough of these guns it eventually becomes apparent what contours are typical of a given manufacturer. US&S pistols also have a unique contour to the finger relief cuts, as do Singers. Colt and Ithaca frames are very similar to each other, but the picture above shows the main difference. If you have an Ithaca with the longer Colt receiver extension then it's going to be one of the Colt-supplied frames Ithaca used early in production.
 
  • Like
Reactions: AZdesert1911
1 - 20 of 20 Posts
Top