[Falt]

I don't think that a Ransom rest will give correct answers. I have not found it to have enough give to simulate how the pistol moves in the hand before the bullet leave the barrel.

But I have mostly seen this for 38special loads in the Ransom rest. With att more powerful load it may work better.

Anything related to the internal ballistics should be correct, like vertical shift caused by the barrel starting to unlock.

But the flex between the hand and the pistol can also cause a poi shift when comparing fat and slow with small and fast.

 

[Rwehavinfunyet]

Generally speaking, a lighter bullet driven at the same velocity as a heavier bullet will hit lower on a target at 25 yards.

The reason is the effect of "muzzle jump." When a 1911 is fired, the muzzle starts to rise upward. The lighter and faster bullet will exit the barrel before the barrel has moved very far upward. The heavier bullet at the same velocity will move out the barrel with more upward movement due to more recoil momentum, and the bullet will leave the muzzle at a higher angle, so the bullet will hit higher on the target.

 

[DaveO430]

You could conceivably load them to hit the same point by loading the 230 very fast and the 165 very slow. At factory velocities the POI will be quite a bit different.

 

[Nitro.45]

That is the answer. Every different load will react differently. If you have to speed one up and slow one down to get the same impact, you have already answered your question…🙂

 

[flechero]

@STORM2 if I'm reading that correctly- you have a RR and just don't want to use it? I don't think it will answer this question, but if you have a Ransom Rest that you are not wanting to use anymore- I think it would sell easily.

 

[riposte191145]

I've not seen a lot of difference in 1911s (or Commanders for that matter) in bullet weight at under 25 yards (maybe around an inch of difference?) - at 50 yards I think I can see maybe a two inch difference but it will depend on which bullet is faster and by then trajectory is a slight factor.

I have shot 152 gr. bullets at just under 1600 fps and 260 gr. bullets as low as 750 fps (and also at 1000 fps) in 5" .45 autos - they all hit close enough to the sights at under 25 yards. Close enough to hit a Bowling pin at 50 yards but you might need a little more accuracy depending on your purpose.

That is in an Auto. In a 4 or 6.5" revolver there is a good deal of difference with the lighter bullets hitting lower - as someone above posted, bullets of the same speed hit closer than bullets regardless of weight, but often lighter bullets are faster - which means they have both lower recoil impulse and the exit the barrel faster.

The time the bullet spends in the barrel seems to have as much of a bearing as the momentum of the bullet. But in autos, the time the slide is cycling may also have a slight bearing. I don't think a 1911 has time to unlock before the bullet exits the muzzle but it might be starting to change the angle of the barrel (and of course the amount you grip pressure you put on the gun can affect it as well).

I have a Ransom rest but that is one thing I've never tested - might be interesting, but I'm not sure it tells us how we interact with the pistol?

Many years ago, I read that grip pressure had something to do with the point of impact. I had a very accurte pre-war Colt Woodsman - and so I tried two groups one with a lot of grip pressure and one held very loose - the light grip group hit ~1" higher than the "firm" grip group at 25 yards. The firm group was also more accurate.

Riposte

 

[USARV72]

As an aside, thus the reason for the “ 6 o’Clock hold” in bullseye shooting.

 

[Tim Burke]

I don't think that a Ransom rest will give correct answers.

Agreed. The way you grip the gun will effect your results.

 

[Tim Burke]

As an aside, thus the reason for the “ 6 o’Clock hold” in bullseye shooting.

I thought the reason for the 6 0'clock hold was to have a reproducible sight picture.

 

[Jim Watson]

The only time I ever looked closely at it was at only 15 yards, but...
230 and 200 shot into the same group. 185 was not only low but a bit left.

 

[USARV72]

I thought the reason for the 6 0'clock hold was to have a reproducible sight picture.

True but also takes in consideration of the rise. Knew some that used center hold especially with a Mdl.41or Supermatic Citation.

 

[Michael W Cuber]

Can’t answer your question completely, but I can tell you of my experience shooting my Springfield Champion side by side to my Springfield Mil Spec at steel at 250 yds using 230 gr ball.
I could make fairly reliable hits with the full size with just an elevation adjustment. Had to hold higher still and to the right to hit with the Champion. Both guns were dead on at 25 yds. When the sun was low behind me, I could actually see the bullets fired from the Champion like you can with a BB gun. They were actually acting like curve balls to the left; maybe, loosing stability at about 200yds. You could see them curve about 6 feet in the air to the left, and were dropping almost twice as much as the full size Gov model Springer. Use to shoot steel with my Browning HP also and never noticed anything like this with the 9mm out to 500 yds.

 

[Swift1]

To do any good at Bullseye you had to be able to keep nearly all your rounds in the black at 25 yards holding with one hand unsupported. Many could do it, most often with a 200 gr. SWC. 2 different targets with different time limits. The guns, National Match, Gold Cup or a variety of customs. Was done, still can be done and there are more expensive customs than were ever imagined.

 

[riposte191145]

True but also takes in consideration of the rise. Knew some that used center hold especially with a Mdl.41or Supermatic Citation.

The only time I've ever used a 6:00 Hold was in High Power rifle competition, but I never did do any formal Bullseye pistol, when I shot rimfire rifle bullseye we used a front peep and zeroed the rifle to hit center when the circles all lined up (I did try using a square post front once but it was so bad I dropped the idea).

I did do a little metallic silhouette. In that I used a 100 meter zero and I held under the the 50 yard chickens and on the top of the body of the 150 meter turkeys and level with the ram horns at 200 meters - the only thing I ever shot a match with was a .44 Magnum though - the folks who excel at that usually changed their sight settings to get the hold they desired. I did shoot a few rounds standing with Jon Powers "Magmatic" .44 at Second Chance in 1978 when Elgin Gates and Larry Kelly were introducing IHMSA (I was a charter member but I don't remember my #). I did not know what range Jon used to zero his pistol but I did hit the ram at 200 m. on the first shot.

To be honest, a lot of my field/hunting pistols are zeroed (POA/POI) at 75-100 yards - that will result in using a 6:00 hold around 37-50 yards (Mid-range), but I admit that is sort of esoteric.

I'm not claiming to be normal though

Riposte

 

[4barrel]

As an aside, thus the reason for the “ 6 o’Clock hold” in bullseye shooting.

To the first question heavier bullets shoot higher in my 1911's but a 180 and 200 seem to hit the same place. I have some 245 grain that prints about 6'' high at 25 yards. ON THE BULLSEYE I bench a lot in my older years. At 25 yards the front sight is the same width as the round black target and helps with drift when you hold at the bottom, The amount of light on the sides of your front sight need to fit your eyes. If your eyes are good you can put a 1'' or 2'' dot on a piece of white paper and get a better group. Serious bench shooting takes a lot of the shake out. When you get to shooting better shoot faster. I like to shoot the 6 target black powder targets for practice. My shooting buddy of 30 years shoots point of aim and I do the 6;o'clock hold. We compete against each other and swap back an forth who wins each week. When I shoot a can at 50 yards with one hand the can is sitting on top of the front sight and the top of the front sight and rear sight are level. Next time I go to the range -being the 245 grains shoot higher I will see where they hit at 100 yards using a 25 yard hold.

 

[USARV72]

Only referring to bullseye matches with 1911s, and 22 rf. Nation Match, 900s, 1800s and combat matches the Army had back in 70s.

 

[STORM2]

I knew I would fail to properly offer the question. Let me change the question to theoretical: Remove the human, remove the gun. The barrel is fixed, mounted as in the lab. At what distance, might the POI remain inside 1 inch. Let’s take it to 15 yards. Trying to determine a distance where bullet/barrel issues are not significant. Great input on stuff I failed to think of.

 

[DaveO430]

If the barrel is fixed and unmovable then bullet drop is the only consideration. That too depends on velocity.

 

[STORM2]

Now we are getting to the point of the exercise, where does speed steal that single inch? Is it inside 15 yards or 6 1/5 feet or less?