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Hi,

I heard that some people alternate ball and hollow-point ammunition just in case the goblin is wearing body armor.

1)Does anyone here or practice this or know anyone that does?

2)What FMJ rounds do you carry (brand, type)? I shoot CCI Blazer because it's cheap but don't know how good of a round it is.

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Jeff More
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All your AR-15 are belong to us!
 

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230 gr. ball will not penetrate body armour. At the very worst case with using JHP, it won't expand. Then it acts just like a ball round. Find a JHP that works in your gun and go with it. If you want to damage someone that is wearing body armour, go for a head shot or shoot something that has a stock on it.

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"Even the most normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag and begin slitting throats"
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I agree with Bill, there isn't any class of body armor that can be defeated with .45 hardball. If you fire more than one round at a thug and he shrugs it off - immediately put the next bullet to the middle of his nose.
 

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LAK, I am not sure if you meant that the person should aim for the head or if you really meant the shot should be to the middle of the nose. Shooting the nose is not a great idea.

If you are taller than the bad guy and you put a shot on the nose, the trajectory will likely be such that the bullet enters the nose and then continues BELOW the brain case where is may completely miss vital nerves, arteries, or veins. One potential end up with a really p-o'd bad guy who now talks funny.

I realize the standard drill is two to the chest and one to the head, but the one to the head really should be stated as one to the brain. Shots to the nose and mouth may be really painful, but not incapacitating. So, if you want to tell someone a target location where the bullet might gain quick access to the brain, the eyes are a better target than the nose. They are a larger target and are perched directly in front of the frontal lobe. Plus, there is minimal bone behind them and entry to the brain should occur if the shot goes through an eye, and this would be from most trajectories (high, low, left, right) if the bad guy is facing in your general direction.
 

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The so-called "Mozambique Drill" is sort of appropriate here. Two quick shots to the center of mass, then a quick analysis. If the goblin is still active, a more deliberate shot to the head. Jeff Cooper, especially when he's discussing smaller calibers, refers to a "shot to the tear duct".

A good many years ago - while the revolver was still king - there was a brief craze for "pattern loading", or loading cylinders with different types of cartridge. The idea made a sort of sense to me, but I never did it. The alternating of HP and hardball ammo seems to be a variation on pattern loading.


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If God didn't want us to own guns, why did He make the 1911?
 

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Double Naught Spy,

The forehead is a pretty small target - and a hit on the very upper portion will probably be deflected over the top of the scalp by the skull altogether. While this may still be a "stopper" (it usually is) I would aim for the middle of the nose. This is actually very close, as it happens, to the lower eyeline.

A bullet that goes high will hit an eye or the forehead anyway. A hit low, through the mouth, to the neck vertebrae will most definately result in instant incapacitation - even if the vertebrae is just "clipped" on either side. Even if it strikes the lower jaw, it will likely shatter it, and if center will probably pass on to the neck vertebrae. If it strikes anywhere on the upper jawline, nose, facial (cheeks) area close to the nose, bridge of the nose, it will likely result in instant incapacitation - even if it is temporary. There are simply not many people at all that are going to still be in the fight after taking a 9mm, .40, .45, or .38/357 slug in the face. While there are plenty of recorded cases of persons surviving and in various levels of "function" after various headshots, it is a very low percentage. And followup shots can be taken at any angle that presents itself immediately if necessary.

I have cited, in another thread, a picture I have seen of someone that took a .44 mag slug just below an eye (facial cheekbone) - it exited just below the ear same side, and supposedly this guy was able to crawl 100 yds before he expired. One thing is for sure though; he was out of the fight the instant the bullet hit him.

This is one of the reasons that although I usually carry a mag full of heavy hollow points, all reload mags are NATO-spec hardball - and I don't feel undergunned at all with a 9mm pistol loaded exclusively with NATO-spec hardball. The head (using the center of the nose from the front as the "bullseye") is a fairly decent sized target. While the center torso is obviously a larger target area; in the employment of the Mozambique drill, once two (or modified to ONE) rounds have not achieved the desired effect, I am going to aim for center-of-face, and hammer away at it.

[This message has been edited by LAK (edited 10-27-2001).]
 

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Jeff,

I am one of those that staggers JHP's and HB in my mags. I work for a large agency where most of the cops carry 1911's. Most of us do stagger between 230 Hydrashocks and any good 230 hardball round ie. Federal, Remington, etc. I have seen HP's fail to penetrate car doors, windshields, solid core doors, and other barriers. HB appears to consistantly penetrate most these in real life. I have nothing against HP's, in fact, I make sure my first round is one, but I like the peace of mind of having a HB follow-up shot. You never know what a bullet will do, so I have the best of both worlds just in case.
 

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Perhaps some of you LEs have more knowledge on this, but I'd think that taking a 230 grain punch to the chest at 900fps is enough to temporarily stop someone wearing body armor; and probably will convince them to cease any further threat. Obviously, the determined criminal will keep on coming, but the blunt trauma must be tremendous.
 

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I don't mean to get off topic but damn, you "dead eye dicks" think you'll have time to aim at the forehead or nose at will in a gun fight?? Organ choice might be nice to talk about on the internet....I think everyone is going to shoot "at" the K zone then go to the head, lets not split hairs.
 

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I find it quite funny that the idea of the bad guy wearing body armor has every one in a tizzy. The fact of the matter is, even if he does and you shoot center of mass a couple of time you are going to bust him up bad and break ribs , cause internal bleeding and other nasty things to his body. and unless this "perp" is a super man he is more than likely out of action . Also assuming that you are safely behind cover where you should be then u will have neutralized him and keep him covered. I am speaking from experience as I have seen what gun shots do when they do not go through the vest. and it is not a pretty sight. and the vest does not always save your life either. the blunt trauma caused by the bullets is almost as deadly as the penetration when it does go through. If a man is walking in harm's way it still does not hurt to be able to make shot to the skull. But unless your "perp" is superman the inital shot(s) he recieved will more than likely stop him.

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Rob,

Not splitting hairs at all. The center of the nose, as I described it, is almost about dead center of head, from the front. In taking a headshot (employing the Mozambique drill) from the front, I would not (for the reasons stated) "aim for the forehead" as one suggested.

You do need an "aiming point" in theory, and in practice. Because it is the theory (as part of the conditioned mindset) and exercised practice that is most likely to be employed in the heat of a fight.

Even for someone who would not attempt a headshot, and aims for center mass; the shot still has to be aimed at a point in the center. Otherwise, the likely result is "spray and spray" anyway.

[This message has been edited by LAK (edited 10-31-2001).]
 

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LAK, I see the point however, I don't think every shooter needs to know all the details of death to be effective. I train to the best of my ability with the gun. I pratice point shooting and precisely using the sights. If there are holes in the K zone and the head when I'm done I'm happy. I am going to aim at the center of the head, then I have a better chance if hitting somewhere on it. I have 8 shots, if I can't make those count then it wasn't meant to be!
If I hit the target in the chest and the "nose" with 2-4 shots and it is not down, I have 4 more, wish me luck.
 

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...you guysaretoomuch...
...I haven't laughed this much in a while...


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OK, forget body armor for a moment, and think of heavy leather jackets, etc. Especially now with winter coming up.

Isn't it possible that certain hollowpoints would have trouble with heavy leather jackets? If that is true, I can see a case for alternating bullet types.
 

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If HP ammo plugs with cloth and therefore doesn't expand, it acts like ball ammo.
I don't see the point.

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"Even the most normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag and begin slitting throats"
Mencken
 

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Originally posted by BillD:
If HP ammo plugs with cloth and therefore doesn't expand, it acts like ball ammo.
I don't see the point.

I wouldn't think that was the case. Wouldn't the full metal jacket assist in penetration, where a soft blunt hollowpoint work against penetration?
 

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If it doesn't expand it doesn't slow down. If it doesn't slow down it penetrates just as deep as ball.

Now if one had a spitzer point, it would pentrate farther but it is hell getting them to feed.

JHP's are basically round nose in shape especially when you plug the HP with cloth.

This is just about penetrating cloth mind you, not about penetrating hard cover. Ball would have the advantage with safety glass or fenders.

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"Even the most normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag and begin slitting throats"
Mencken

[This message has been edited by BillD (edited 11-02-2001).]
 

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Originally posted by python1340:
I wouldn't think that was the case. Wouldn't the full metal jacket assist in penetration, where a soft blunt hollowpoint work against penetration?
Nope. The rounded profile actually creates more surface area (and less disruption) than a flat point, and therefore more drag and less penetration. If deep penetrating is the ticket, your are better off with a flat nosed bullet (like guys use in big-bore revolvers for hunting). In a 1911 about as close as you could get would be an SWC.

That is not a blanket answer, not going into spitizer profiles, or if the lead is peculiarly soft, &c.
 

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Maybe you submarine qualified guys could verify this.

A properly stabilized roundnose projectile will penetrate a fluid medium - or predominently so - with less disruption than any other shape (Or pehaps it is that a rounded profile projectile is easier to stabilize in a fluid medium).

Isn't this why all those subs have rounded bows as opposed to pointed?

[This message has been edited by LAK (edited 11-16-2001).]
 
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