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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
This absolutely disgusts me that those that are supposed to be defending our right to keep and bear arms, cannot close ranks and work together to fight the good fight of freedom. Like it or not that the case is before the US Supreme Court, every gun rights organization should be lending a hand where ever needed to help win this case.

You can read the full thread here: Haas of Ammoguide.com bashes KABA (Freerepublic.com)

Don't give up the fight,
Difranco

+++++++++++ Article / Rant Begins +++++++++++++++

KABA asking for cash - AGAIN
Haas' Guide to Small Arms Ammunition ^ | 10/27/2003 | Mike Haas

KABA asking for cash - AGAIN
Risking the Second Amendment on raffles

KABA, the one-man website run out of a garage, is asking for your money again so they can play lawyer at the USSC level, placing your Second Amendment rights at great risk.

Can we tell it like it is? That KABA is a handful of ignorant militants who simply attack all that is NRA (send them money instead!) and has placed our Second Amendment rights in dire jepoardy if their awful case gets USSC cert?

Here is KABA's latest screed...

> Gun Rights Rifle Raffle:
> We Are Giving Away a Wilson Combat Tactical Rifle to a Lucky Donor
> Donate $20, Get a 1-in-500 Chance to Win
> Grassroots support is necessary to continue our fight to get a Supreme Court
> ruling on the nature, purpose, original intent and effect of the Second
> Amendment to the Bill of Rights. Your support is appreciated.
> *************************

"Grassroots support is necessary to continue our fight to get a Supreme Court ruling". I suspect grassroots is MORE necessary to keep these misfits from having to get a real job.

Most experts would recommend attorney skill and a good case at the USSC level, but clearly KABA doesn't think they are what they are are cracked up to be - it's GRASSROOTS that makes the difference with the USSC. They have illustrated THEIR lack of attorney skills with their briefs, and are trying to foist a turkey of a case on us.

Gee, maybe KABA will start a petition for the judges to rule in our favor. THAT'LL shake those judged up - get 'em shaking in their boots. After all, KABA is really good with petitions, right? Look how they made John Ashcroft bend to their will. (not)

How can ANYONE think this band of "anti-NRA/send-me-money-instead" gypsies are worth supporting or that their seriously flawed arguments will have merit?

Chuck Michel on Silveira v. Lockyer
Dave Kopel - The Silveira Threat
Don Kates - Silveira: Second Amendment Suicide
USENET tires of KABA tripe

Not to mention, KABA recently failed to understand Stephen Halbrook's strategy in a recent court case, and accused this respected scholar of "selling out"! Read Halbrooks response here...
Halbrook Responds to KABA critisism

And note: KABA thinks it is quite appropriate to threaten scholars and name-call gun-activists simply because they publicly disagree in forums such as this. Read the thread at...
An activists view of Silveira v. Lockyer
...and then ask yourself "How are they going to react the first time a USSC justice puts them on the spot with tough questions?" Maybe KABA will just call the USSC justice "pathetic", ignore the question and move on. That seems to be how they handle simple disagreement.

So - these are the Second Amendment champions that are saving us from the evils of gun control? Dysfunctional loose cannons that unilaterally insult everyone from RKBA's most respected legal minds to volunteers? How is that supposed to work?

Grassroots necessary at the USSC level indeed. If you believe it, shame on you. If they believe it, we're in bigger trouble than ever.

Mike Haas
NRA Benefactor Member
CA NRA volunteer
Author, Haas' Guide to Small Arms Ammunition
http://AmmoGuide.com/


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mike Haas is an NRA Benefactor Member and Senior Software Engineer by trade. Volunteer efforts include: creator and webmaster of NRAWinningTeam.com; webmaster, NRAMembersCouncils.com; past member of the NRA Nominating Committee; NRA-ILA Election Volunteer Coordinator (EVC) for CA 7th Congressional district; president of the NRA Members' Council of West Contra Costa County; administrator of the California NRA Members' Councils email list.
 

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I dont know about this one. If it goes to the Supreme Court we are likely to lose.

The only thing important to know is whether SCOTUS striking down the 2nd Amendment will wake up enough Americans to make up for the harm that would cause.

On the other hand it could really harm us by them declaring a very limited individual right that can be violated under all kinds of circumstances.

Basically make it a meaningless right.

Or they just wont take it.

I have zero confidence they will correctly interpret the 2nd Amendment as an unlimited individual right to bear personal weaponry as the founding fathers intended it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Mus said:
I dont know about this one. If it goes to the Supreme Court we are likely to lose.

The only thing important to know is whether SCOTUS striking down the 2nd Amendment will wake up enough Americans to make up for the harm that would cause.

On the other hand it could really harm us by them declaring a very limited individual right that can be violated under all kinds of circumstances.

Basically make it a meaningless right.

Or they just wont take it.

I have zero confidence they will correctly interpret the 2nd Amendment as an unlimited individual right to bear personal weaponry as the founding fathers intended it.
MUS,

I understand your negative outlook about the whole issue but you should read this article by Roy Lucas.

Difranco
 

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Ive read that article before.

Im just saying as things are now, regardless of any merit involved, I dont see a 2nd Amendment case winning in court. Nor do I think that situation will change anytime in the near future.

The only way I see any of our rights, 2nd amendment included, surviving the next century is by our fellow citizens undergoing a "Great Awakening" in regard to many things. In regard to where we are as a country, where we are headed, the heights from which we have fallen, why it has happened, who is responsible for it, and look back at the writings of our founding fathers and try to return our nation to a form they would recognize. Furthermore, that ways to correct all these incremental wrongs in our country be seen, and that enough people have the fortitude necessary to allow those actions to be taken.

It seems that almost every facet of our society, from our education system meant to indoctrinate rather than educate, to our television and newspaper media meant to distract instead of inform, is designed to prevent any of that taking place.

Im saying that as of right now we are losing this fight.

And I apologize for my dark mood in advance.

;)

I agree with you that this kind of fratricide in the gun rights community is disgusting, and furthermore the NRA is the last organization that should be putting down people for asking for money, "lest they have to go get real jobs." Good Lord I cant go through my mail without finding something from the NRA asking for my money.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Mus said:
Ive read that article before.

Im just saying as things are now, regardless of any merit involved, I dont see a 2nd Amendment case winning in court. Nor do I think that situation will change anytime in the near future.

The only way I see any of our rights, 2nd amendment included, surviving the next century is by our fellow citizens undergoing a "Great Awakening" in regard to many things. In regard to where we are as a country, where we are headed, the heights from which we have fallen, why it has happened, who is responsible for it, and look back at the writings of our founding fathers and try to return our nation to a form they would recognize. Furthermore, that ways to correct all these incremental wrongs in our country be seen, and that enough people have the fortitude necessary to allow those actions to be taken.
I think we (the nation) may be reaching a slow awakening. The nation is still a bit groggy.

I think this Brief submitted written and submitted by Mr. Lucas has a good chance. Mr. Lucas also wrote the winnning brief for Roe V. Wade and convinced the court of a right where none was written. I think his past experience before the court will carry a lot of weight if SCOTUS hears the case.

Dark Moods I understand especially in light of the Michigan cases.

difranco
 

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I agree that the lawsuit is a bit risky--if we lose, it sets a dangerous precedent.

But for heaven's sake--the California assault weapons ban is clearly a violation of the Second Amendment. This is true whether you look at the text of the amendment, the original understanding of its meaning as expressed in the debate over its passage, or the case law since then (e.g., US v. Miller).

If the law is unconstitutional, don't we have to at least try to get it overturned?

And why hasn't the NRA tried? Here in California, it seems as though we're losing the anti-gun fight just by not showing up.
 

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Agree with Ceemack. As far as the states are concerned, the 2nd amendment already might as well not even exist. It doesn't seem like we're risking much. The pro-gun states will continue to be pro gun, and the anti gun states will continue to be anti gun, even if we lose.

At the federal level, it's the same story. The battle is over how many pro-gun vs. anti-gun reps and senators are in office -- NOT over the power of the 2nd amendment.

I think the SC fight is inevitable -- best to fight it when we've got a clear cut 2nd amendment case with pro-2nd amendment people on our side fighting for us.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
That's why this is such a good case. There was not any criminal type activity involved.
 
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