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I know from 57 years of life experience that any manufacturer can have a bad gun come off the end of the line.

But I am one happy camper tonight as I no longer own a Para product! :)

I've owned dozens of handguns over the past 45 years and still own 25 or more- every brand conceivable from Sig to Beretta, from Colt to Springfield, from Glock to Ruger, from Cimmaron to CZ, from S&W to Taurus- but I've NEVER owned a gun as disappointing as my stainless Warthog.

I bought it nearly 2 months ago and took it to the range where it was for all intents and purposes a single-shot handgun. It wouldn't feed anything reliably. I tried half a dozen hardballs and half a dozen jhp and nothing would cycle the gun consistently.

No... no wrist issues. I routinely shot a Kimber Ultra CDP II which is considerably smaller and lighter than the warthog and it never fails to cycle no matter what kind of ammunition.

After about 125+ various fte, ftf, ftc issues out of 150 or so rounds, the gun went back to Para's repair facility in TN. I respectfully asked for a refund, as there is no way in the world I would EVER trust that gun for a CC weapon after the initial experience.

The request was declined and after more than a month I phoned back. They had a long, LOOOOONG list of repairs they had made to the gun and assured me it would be shipped back that day. (They declined to answer when I asked if the repairs had already been completed- how come it hadn't been shipped back BEFORE I phoned!?!)

Another 10 days went by and I phoned again and was told, "It'll probably go out next week." Again- no response when I asked why it hadn't gone out 10 days ago when they told me it would ship.

The gun finally arrived all nice and shiny and I immediately took it on the rounds of the several largest gun dealers in my area seeking to trade it for something- ANYTHING really.

The first two where I've dealt for years, successfully trading and buying many firearms both passed. "We've had bad luck with Para products and we won't trade for them- at any price! Sorry!"

GULP! :confused:

The third dealer is a Para dealer with LOTS of Para inventory so he couldn't very well say he doesn't want any Para guns! We worked out an even trade for a lightly used Sig P229 (I used to own a P228 which was an absolutely 100% reliable gun) and so tonight I'm relieved to say I no longer own any Para handgun.

So... while it probably sounds like sour grapes or belly-achin'... and maybe it is... I've never owned a handgun that wasn't basically reliable out of the box until this one. I've had a smith or armorer tweek a gun here or there to extract the maximum performance from a gun- but they basically all work in my experience. Not so, the Para Warthog.

To say I was unimpressed with the gun is an understatement. To say I was even LESS impressed with the factory repair service and company response is even MORE of an understatement.

I know that MANY of you have had good experiences with Para products- and I know that MANY of you have had problems with Colt, Kimber, Sig, etc. I'm only sharing my personal experience for whatever it's worth.

As I said at the beginning- any manufacturer can have a bad one slip through. And maybe that's all this was- 1 bad one in 1000. But when I carry a gun for self-protection I'm just not willing to start off with a weapon that fires single-shot that has been worked on by a cantankerous company that's slower than molasses in returning it. I don't trust their craftsmanship if I can't trust their business procedures.

For those of you who have a reliable Para- Congratulations!!

For those of you who don't have a reliable Para- I can sympathize!!

I just know that tonight, I'm THRILLED to have another reliable SIG in the arsenal and no Para products.

With no small sense of relief,

Steve :scratch:
 

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I know the feeling. My problem child is a Kahr CW9. Did the break in period, clean and lube, had a gunsmith try to fix it; just seems to get worse. It is a closet queen collecting dust now.

I recently acquired a Hawg 9. I had a few problems to start with, but after the break in period, it is functioning great. Won't trade it for anything.

I think that you are right, every manufacturer be it Para-Ord, Colt, Ford, GM, etc. produces a lemon every so often. It really sucks when you are the one holding it cause it will definitely sour you.
 

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Same experience, but with a 5" .45

I won't rehash all the gruesome details (search my name and Para if you want) but I bought a full size single stack a few years ago. Unloaded it rather quickly. Regular hunk O' Junk. If I remember correctly, I think I used the term "Canuck Crap" to describe them.
 

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You sparked my curiosity of whether or not they successfully repaired your gun. Sounds like maybe you missed out by not testing it?
 

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well

sounds like you sent a gun back, and they went over it and probably made perfect before sending back, this often creates the best bargain when test crews go over gun and fix it... much moreso than just a factory gun that shoots ok out of box, but has many faults just waiting to happen over time. I too have had about 200 guns in my time all mnufacturers... the fact is about EVERY 1911 you buy unless cost $2000 or more, is gonna need some sort of attention... be it minor or major, i can say one thing, i would have shot the thing, as when done you probably had a bulletproof gun, much moreso than a factory gun "that works" out of the box... i would have assumed an experinced gun owner would have known this? but it is wrong to assume anything...
 

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sounds like you sent a gun back, and they went over it and probably made perfect before sending back, this often creates the best bargain when test crews go over gun and fix it... much moreso than just a factory gun that shoots ok out of box, but has many faults just waiting to happen over time. I too have had about 200 guns in my time all mnufacturers... the fact is about EVERY 1911 you buy unless cost $2000 or more, is gonna need some sort of attention... be it minor or major, i can say one thing, i would have shot the thing, as when done you probably had a bulletproof gun, much moreso than a factory gun "that works" out of the box... i would have assumed an experinced gun owner would have known this? but it is wrong to assume anything...

Yup!

You can pick any mfg. (of production pistols) listed on this forum and find similar experiences.

We are not told if the seasoned owner/shooter bothered to clean and lube the weapon before going to the range with it, and he didn't shoot it when it came back from Para, so my first thought about the post is simpy.....mehhh.

He did manage to write a bitter letter (rivaling War & Peace in length) and post it here...instead of sending it to Para where it needs to go.

But, thats his privilege.

Personally, I've had good luck with Para's functioning correctly and reliably.
 

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Sounds like maybe you missed out by not testing it?
I agree. It probably was perfect when you got it back. But because of your disgust with Para, you did not care to test it after they worked on it.

Hope that Sig is a life saver for Ya.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
It might have been perfect... and for the sake of whoever owns it next I hope it is!!

And no... I didn't re-test it because by that time I had a mental image of the gun and it wasn't an image I would trust my life to. More like the clown's gun at the circus where a flag pops out of the end of the barrel which reads "BANG" than something I could aim confidently and press the trigger in a life and death situation!

It really WAS for the new buyer's sake that I didn't test it when I got it back. The gun is a CCW gun. It's not a target pistol or a hunting pistol. It's not a plinker and it's not a western action pistol- it's a concealed carry self-defense pistol.

I WANT to assume Para fixed it to run perfectly with 100% reliability. I couldn't in good conscience testfire it, find out it still was unreliable and then sell it (trade it) to some other buyer who might trust HIS life to a gun I knew wouldn't work reliably.

Anyway... I'm a happy camper and I hope whoever ends up with that particular gun is too!!
 

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But I am one happy camper tonight as I no longer own a Para product!

Best move you or anyone else could make !!! Congrads on finding a sucker to pawn it off on !!!
 

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I have two older ones a P13 and a P14 Limited, both great guns. As for little .45's I learned that with any brand its hit or miss a long time ago. Ive had a Colt Officers a SA Micro and a V10 and a Kimber as well. All were chokers, some worse than others. I learned my lesson and its all Government and Commander sized from here on out. I guess what Im saying is, if your happy were all happy for you. Even though it doesnt seem to be a real good idea financially to buy a pistol, and spend the extra money to ship it back and then go trade it for a 400 dollar pistol.
 

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'I had a mental image of the gun and it wasn't an image I would trust my life to'

Completely understandable - confidence in your weapon is everything. However, for the sake of a little tweaking....
I had a SA Ultra-Compact V-10 once that worked great - until I tried 7-rd mags in it. I quickly returned to the original 6-rd mags - six for sure!
I would wager magazines were the major culprit in that PO pistol.
 

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You guys need to quit ripping this man for trading off a pistol he was not confident in. The biggest weapon you have in a fight is not your pistol, but your mindset. If you are confident and ready for a fight, chances are you'll win. What good is a perfect pistol if you're always doubting it?

First impressions are everything. The fact that the pistola may now be the most reliable thing on the planet may not be able to silence the little voice of doubt in his mind, in which case he has done the right thing in getting rid of the pistol.
 

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no doubt

'I had a mental image of the gun and it wasn't an image I would trust my life to'

Completely understandable - confidence in your weapon is everything. However, for the sake of a little tweaking....
I had a SA Ultra-Compact V-10 once that worked great - until I tried 7-rd mags in it. I quickly returned to the original 6-rd mags - six for sure!
I would wager magazines were the major culprit in that PO pistol.
The thing we have to all understand and I will try to relate from 40 years of BEING IN THE RETAIL gun busienss. Is that people buy a gun (any brand to) AND THEY EXPECT THEM TO WORK. They should not have to try different magazines, or tweak this or tweak that to make them function. Is see this all the time on another handgun board. They have people so indoctrinated into realizing that it might have to go back to the factory to get it finally right. This is pure b. S. in my opinion. If these companies have that philosphy, then they should include a prepard self addressed mailer in every new gun box. The consurmer should not have to absorb this cost, nor inconvenicne. I owned a very expensive 1911 handgun (brand I will not mention) and I had issues where it had to go back 3 times, I totally lost all confidence in it. I loved the gun, the style, the accuracy but just got feed up with the little issues. I am no smithy,but know more than 90% of gun owners, so what does a new owner of a nice handgun do when he has an issue with a gun that "might" just be tweaking the magazine some to get it right. He certainly has no knowledge of what to do.These gun companies need to get these things right before they put them in a shipping box. From a gun dealer standpoint I got awfully sick and tired trying to alibi for a good gun companies product that I just sold that does not work to a customer that was indeed not happy. we don't buy cars, we don't buy tv's ,cameras or for that matter anything else that in our minds we are going to have to send back to get if fixed right, .
 

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answered ur own question

I have two older ones a P13 and a P14 Limited, both great guns. As for little .45's I learned that with any brand its hit or miss a long time ago. Ive had a Colt Officers a SA Micro and a V10 and a Kimber as well. All were chokers, some worse than others. I learned my lesson and its all Government and Commander sized from here on out. I guess what Im saying is, if your happy were all happy for you. Even though it doesnt seem to be a real good idea financially to buy a pistol, and spend the extra money to ship it back and then go trade it for a 400 dollar pistol.
all were chokers??? Now is that good PR for any gun company, Is that a good reputation for any gun company. Price seems to have no bearing on whether it works or not, Maybe this $400 pistol will be flawless. Ur point is well taken though, but it should not be acceptable to a gun owner.Make the "choker" right the first time and the word "choker" will soon dissapear from the gun owners vocabulary. I had 3 handguns (same company) "choke" a total of 17 times. Now how does one defend that type of cr-p???? Does it do any good for a gun companay to introuduce the "SMALLEST, LITEST 45 on the market, IF IT IS A CHOKER???
 

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You guys need to quit ripping this man for trading off a pistol he was not confident in. The biggest weapon you have in a fight is not your pistol, but your mindset. If you are confident and ready for a fight, chances are you'll win. What good is a perfect pistol if you're always doubting it?

First impressions are everything. The fact that the pistola may now be the most reliable thing on the planet may not be able to silence the little voice of doubt in his mind, in which case he has done the right thing in getting rid of the pistol.
+1

90% of the game is half mental! >.>

If you don't have confidence that all you have to do is worry about is sight alignment and trigger squeeze then you'll be slow in a SHTF situation. I know I had a similar situation with my Steyr M9A1. 1 really bad FTE in every 100 rounds the first 200-300 or so before I cleaned it really well. Now, as long as I keep it clean every 200 rounds or so I've 1 FTE in the last 700 rounds. Still a little high for me, but much better for the remainder of the first 1000 rounds. As long as I do my part I don't see it getting any worse.

If the gun doesn't perform to your expectations, or you don't see it improving with use or maintenance, then you don't need to trust your life to it.
 

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Of course you could just buy a revolver. No FTE or FTF problems. Pull the trigger and it goes BANG!:rofl:
 
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