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Discussion Starter #1
They've gotten good reviews from what I've read so far, but I'd like some opinions from the group here. Not for my 1911, but for the .357 model 640 J-frame I just bought for my wife!
 

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Personally, I think they are basic gee-wiz gadgetry that were created with the best of intentions, but don't quite do what people expect. A lot of the problem here has to do with hype perpetuated by salespeople and partly due to what people see on TV and therefore expect.

A friend of mine teaches for concealed handgun licensing. He had an old chap come in to do his renewel with crimson trace and the guy got a score of 100 which wasn't too shabby for a man in his 80s. Lasers can be used effectively as indicated in this case.

There are some downsides. For example, you can't consider that if you put the magic red dot on some guy's chest that he will immediately have the fear of God in him because he knows that if he does something wrong that the illuminated red dot will turn into a blood stain. It just doesn't work that way. There is no intimidation by the red dot unless the guy is looking at his chest, which chances are, he won't be doing. So don't even consider the idea that there is an intimidation factor that is genuine.

With the laser, a lot of people simply track the dot until the dot ends up on target, like playing a video game. However, even the brightest dots have some shortcomings. In bright sunlight, they are harder to see than at night. You can see them, but it is a little harder. Also, if your target is wearing a red shirt, you can lose track of the dot as it blends. Similarly, really dark colors like brown or black can absorb much of the light such that little is reflected back for you to see. It may be hard to see the dot on target this way at night, and darn near impossible during the daytime.

The crimson trace guy at the gun show talked about how much gun fights happen at night and how the dot is a big advantage. At night, they are easier to see, no doubt. However, the laser also acts as a guide for your opposition to shoot you. He will be able to see where the light is originating and even if he can't see you, he can shoot at the light and have a high chance for success in hitting you. The light can also serve to tip him off as to when he is being targeted by you.

In night fights, you need to see two things. You need to see your target and you need to see your sights. Lasers serve as a replacement for seeing your sights, but do nothing for helping you to see your target. There is a good chance you will still need a flashlight.

The last concern is the batteries and electrical connections. While they are probably just great, I would hate to be caught off guard with dead batteries and lose crucial time trying to get my laser to come on so that I could address my attacker appropriately with the laser.

As one guy posted on another forum, laser sights are really good for making dots on the ceiling at gun shows.
 

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I have a set of Crimson Trace laser-grips on a 1911. The grips are comfortable, and I don't think they change the feel of the gun.

The defensive/combat advantages/disadvatages of laser sights have been reviewed in the past couple issues of American Handgunner. You may want to take a look at the articles before buying a set of laser grips.

One advantage I have found with the grips is that they help with practice, especially with trigger pull. At 7-10 yards, the jumping red dot really tells you when you're jerking the trigger.

Good Luck
 

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I bought a set of CT's for my 442. I love them. The way I look at it I still have regular sights if I need them and I practice with both the laser and sights. As for the batteries, I think they have something like a 4 or 5 year shelf life (4hrs use). I keep spares handy and check them often. To me its no different than checking things like my 1911 mags periodically to make sure everything is in runnin' order.
My .02 worth.
Sam
 

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I have a set on my SP101 and they are great.

I can imagine many different situations in which a laser-equipped weapon could make the difference between success and failure, so I will simply agree to disagree with those that think they are only good for making red dots on the ceiling.

And I agree with fla30--they also work great for dry-fire practice.
 

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I have one on a Wilson Combat Classic. The grips are comfortable and it does not change the profile of the gun. It comes with a video on defensive usage of lasers. It demonstrated several situations where you employ the laser while remaining behind cover and still get accurate hits. I think that is its best attribute. As others have already stated, it also shows you your wiggles and wobbles and helps with proper trigger pull.
 

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Want to see lots of fun? Put lasers on all your forced-entry team members' weapons, and have them storm a drug house in the middle of the night. Now find a suspect or two in the middle of a dark hallway.

"Jim, is that your dot?" "No, I think it's Steve's." "No, Steve's laser is intermitently shorting out." Paul says " My dot is on suspect number one's forehead." "No that's my dot", says Mike. By this time, Ted is twirling his laser in tight little circles (like a kid with a sparkler on July 4th) trying to figure out where his dot is..............You get the idea.

I haven't found a practical use for them yet....other than annoying the cat!
 

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Well ok, here I go...

Shane, I'm not LEO, but if I ever were, remind me to never have you on my entry team!


Personally, I don't see how things could get that confusing even when the whole team had lasers. Someone would have to be both disoriented and really stupid to not know exactly where his/her own gun (and hence laser) was pointed. Plus, the good guys should have a plan, who moves where and when, right? They probably have comm gear, right? They should be the ones creating the confusion, not the ones succumbing to it... I know that things don't always go as planned, but you make it sound like most highly-trained SWAT Team members turn into a looney toons characters the moment their lasers go on.

I just don't understand why some people find it so difficult to imagine situations where a laser would be helpful!

-what about when the BG sees a red dot moving across the floor, up his leg, and settling onto his chest? I don't know about you, but if it were me, I would also then be forced to notice the wet feeling spreading down my leg!

-how about in those "twilight" times when you cannot see the sights, but it is still light enough to positively ID a BG? Now what if he *knows* that it is too dark to use sights? Well, that's when he decides to jump you until he notices this red light eminating from your gun... Gee, I wonder where that is pointing? he says to himself. See, we are not relying on him "randomly" glancing down at his chest.

Night sights you say? Ok, but how about:

-if you are in a struggle for your weapon, on the ground, trying to fend off the attacker with one hand, and keep your weapon in the other? You *need* to shoot, but the BG is on top of you, around to the side of you, whatever. You can't ask him to take a few paces back, so you can get into your weaver stance and get a good sight picture. With a laser, you don't have to worry about missing him or hitting yourself--you just put the dot on him and fire.

Now these are just a couple of rough ideas off the top of my head. But hopefully, they are enough to get you thinking about situations in which a laser could very well make the difference between success and failure. Situations in which training, night sights, flashlights, whatever, may not have been enough.

Can someone make the mistake of using a laser as a crutch or substitute for training? Absolutely. But for me, it's just another tool that may give me that last little extra advantage. Personally, I am not worried about making it a fair fight--I will "cheat" however I can to make sure that at the end of the situation, I and my family are not the ones bleeding on the carpet that my wife just dry-cleaned...
 

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Originally posted by gtf:

Personally, I don't see how things could get that confusing even when the whole team had lasers. Someone would have to be both disoriented and really stupid to not know exactly where his/her own gun (and hence laser) was pointed)
If you've never been involved with a forced entry, I don't expect you to understand how confusing things can get. Things don't always go as planned, and the events don't always happen in the order we like them to. My point in a nutshell is that the best planned tactical entry was reduced to shambles because the brass thought that lasers are the best thing since sliced bread.

6 entry team officers with MP-5's and 1911's crammed into a narrow, dark unfamiliar hallway upon entry, is a high risk venture to begin with. Don't make it worse by relying on lasers to show where we are aiming. Now add some movement into the operation - movement of the good guys, movement of the bad guys, and movement of all those tiny little red dots. I don't believe you can pick out your dot from 5 others when movement is occuring on all these different axis. The point man had presence of mind to go Surefire, which helped immediately, as now we can use the iron sights. Also, the smoke from the "flash-bangs" has a nice side effect with laser light. It tends to relect it right back into the eye of the operator.

I'm not saying don't use them. I'm saying I don't use them, and have tried to explain why. If you are a one man assault team, feel free to storm buildings with your laser. The only dot you'll see will be your own.
 

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"-what about when the BG sees a red dot moving across the floor, up his leg, and settling onto his chest? "

Well, if the bad guy is dumb enough to watch the red dot go across the floor and land on his chest, then it will have an impact on his behavior. However, what if as you are running the dot along the floor to get to his leg and up to his chest, he has been shooting at the source of that little red light?

I really think TV has over played to dramatic impact of the magical little red dots on BGs...As if pointing a big ole gun at them would not scare them, but a light would.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Thanks for all the feedback, people! Now for the follow-up:
I decided to buy them, only to get them home, put them on my gun, and see that they did not fit my hand at all. Not to mention that they felt a little cheap...For 200+dollars, you have to be a little picky. I just plain didnt like the feel of the grip, and that was enough to make me return the darn things.
I'm just a home user, with no forced entries happening with any kind of swat team, so those arguments pertaining to flashbangs and groups of guys with lasers do not apply here.
I do like the feedback that I got, and it goes to show that if you start a thread here, expect the unexpected when it comes to replies!
I love this group.
Thanks again

------------------
Hello and goodbye, as always.
 

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You guys, I just want to state for the record that I'm not trying to flame anyone, I am just having a fun time with this topic, so take my response with a dash of humour, ok?


Shane, I understand that things can get confusing, but it still scares me to think that the situation you described was "well planned". You had laser-equipped weapons, but used something that smoked up the place first? And then you make it seem like everyone just starts running around waving their laser all over the place! I'm not trying to be insulting, but what you describe sounds more like a Three Stooges skit than a "well-planned" entry. I guess I just watch too many movies...


And keep in mind that I never said lasers are a good idea for tactical entry teams. In fact, if I ever had any doubts, you have at least convinced me that they are NOT!
My only real point is that just because something is not always the best tool for entry teams does not mean that it has no other possible use (which you implied in your original response), especially since the poster was obviously not interested in "storming" anything.

DNS, I'm not talking about the BG watching a dot move slowly across the floor while the theme to jeopardy is playing in the background. I'm just hypothesizing on a possible scenario where the BG happens to notice the dot move onto him--where the laser would indeed be effective as an "intimidation" factor. And in my scenario, it may be too dark to see a gun, and morover, the BG may not even have a gun, or have it out, or--well, you get the idea.

I am not saying that a laser is the end-all be-all answer to win every situation. All I am *trying* to get across is that there are situations where it could be useful, and darn few where it would be a hindrance.

Smay, I was very unsure about replacing the grips on my SP101, especially since I really like the stock grips. I was pleasantly surprised to find that I liked them quite a bit. Yes, they are plastic-feeling, but I felt like I still had a nice grip on the gun and that they didn't look half-bad after all. To each his own I guess.
 

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I think for a jframe and the intended use first asked about they are great tools to help in that situation. The CT is the best available.

A 357 jframe has to one of the most difficultto shhot handguns out there. If this proves to increase her hit potential (and I think it will) it's a good choice IMO.
 

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The question asked was "Any experience with Crimson Trace Lasergrips." I answered the question. Period.
 

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Bought one for a taurus model 85 38 spl that also fits my 9 shot 22 lr model 94. It is
fun to shoot the litle 38 and the 22.
I bought it to try to get my girlfriend to go shoot.
I can really shoot good fast double action groups with the grips with both eyes open.
For me it is a keeper.
Also It is great for dry fire practice.
and I agree with Dane for the intended purpose it is the best outthere , got mine for $168 from ultimate outdoors in Texas.
 

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what about for a wife that is not as enthousiastic about going to the range as you are??

atleast this can help her confidence in knowing what she is going to hit.
Granted...my Father In Law used to keep his FFL and has MANY guns available. Wifey is pretty comfortable and does very well with open sights.

but I know many that like the idea of having the little red dot when they are home alone with the hubby on a business trip.
 

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So, has anyone had any mechanical or technical issues with them? I'm not a member of an entry team and will also continue to use my Meps most of the time. I just am thinking about the CT grips as another option and, let's be honest, a toy.
 

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Yes you can see the red source of the laser at some point if you are doing a dark forced entry. You can also see all of the tac lights that are switched on attached to the front of the barrel of most of the weapons. And I would sure hope that all of the team members have had enough training to know where there sight is pointed, no matter what kind of sighting systems are used.

Deezul
 

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I have them, I like them.. They are not a substitute for regular sights.
They are an additional option and tool..


I've got more than one wrench in my tool box too.
 

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Red dot?, what red dot?. The only thing a perp entering my home in the middle of the night is gonna hear, is the sound of a 12 gauge pump shotgun being racked. If that doesn't make em break a sweat, and cause em to exit, then he's gonna have a whole bunch of red dots on him, made by .00 buck shot. :hrm:

good luck, and be safe.


SILENT ONE
 
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