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Discussion Starter · #21 ·
If the idea is any good, Bill Wilson will start selling it with his line of Lehigh ammo.
Someone told me once, packing a hollow point with Sodium and sealing it with varnish works great on Terrorists, but he may have pulling my leg, I never tried it.
Pulling it big time.

Grumpy
 

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Actually, pure sodium (or is it potassium?) exposed to gaseous O2 can react in an incendiary manner. There would be O2 and moisture in a wound cavity which would theoretically provide the chemicals for a spontaneous exothermic reaction...

I wouldn't rule it out as a pure myth out of hand.

Those light metallic elements (including Hydrogen) can be very reactive and not exactly safe to work with if I recall my chemistry classes correctly.

As for the Critical Defense bullets-there has been a lot of research and development into expanding bullets in the last 30 years. In the late seventies anything with lesser velocity than a .357 Magnum and it was a waste of money to use a JHP because below 1150FPS or so there was no way the bullet would expand-clotted with outerwear or not, those old bullets behaved as solids at transonic or lower velocities.

Now? Different story. Computer modeling of complex fluid dynamics and extensive ballistic gel testing with a bunch of man hours of engineering effort have changed many things-there are 30 Caliber copper bullets that expand into dreadful shapes at subsonic velocities!

Of course some of those bullets are as long as the .380 Kurtz cartridge with bullet is.

There is a 90 gr XTP in .355, I haven't loaded any but I imagine that those, loaded behind a max charge of Accurate #2 would make for as good as or better than most commercial ammo.

Not saying there isn't something to the inserts-someone thought they were worth the effort after all and in an cartridge with less energy they may be very useful-but if you can't get them the question is not if they work, but if you have the time, energy, facilities and money to reverse engineer them to determine any added value?

It's a .380, worst case the JHP will act like a solid so if you cap some evil doer the most critical thing is shot placement.

Outside of causing a CNS shutdown there are no guaranteed one shot stop handgun cartridges-the energy just isn't available-until you get to the extreme pressure examples like the .460 S&W at which point a carbine is really just as practical and doesn't weigh much more...
 

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I had one self proclaimed ordnance expert tell me that they developed a superhyper round for spooks. They would take a regular bullet drill it out, pour in some 4F and then top it off with a primer turned backwards into the case. It was guaranteed to blow a person's lungs right out of their heads. And this is no BS! 😣
 

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OK ... see if you can wrap your head around this. A friend of mine back in the day showed me this one. He would take a hollow point bullet (both 180 and 230grn .45 bullets) and using his press he would press a steel BB into the end of a hollow point bullet until it was (almost) flush then load them. I'm not sure exactly what bullets he started with, but it looked really cool, and I did see some shot into water jugs with spectacular results. And they fed like butter.

This was in the '80s and I'm surprised someone hasn't tried it again.

And just from my experience in my small 9mm and my buddies gun too we had issues with the Hornady plastic tip bullets hanging up on the feed ramp more than once. I only use their .38 rounds in my J-frame now. Note that both of our small autos were pretty new at the time. They may work better after more break-in. But I'm not carrying them in my pocket auto.
 

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Here's a question that popped into my head while following my JHP thread.

I like Hornady's Critical Defense rounds that have the small "plastic" insert within the hollow point cavity. With the exception of possibly finding some pull-downs, they are not available as a component (at least I've not found them). I'm told the insert is to initiate expansion and possibly produce better expansion at less-than-optimal velocities.

So, could a reloader fill the cavity of a hollow point bullet with something that would produce similar results? I have read articles that say when the cavity fills with clothing the bullet doesn't expand properly, so what makes the insert any different? I would imagine any sort of caulking would be too soft. Would hot glue possibly work?

I'm curious but suffer from "Lack of secondary educational degrees." Any one care to offer their thoughts?

Grumpy
From their video, it looks like the plastic is shaped to expand outward when it strikes an object. This outward expansion forces the thin edge of the hollow point outward, starting the expansion of the metal. Without the plastic and assuming that the hollow point strikes something soft (clothing) the edge would be as likely to expand inwards as outwards. Does that make sense?
 

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OK ... see if you can wrap your head around this. A friend of mine back in the day showed me this one. He would take a hollow point bullet (both 180 and 230grn .45 bullets) and using his press he would press a steel BB into the end of a hollow point bullet until it was (almost) flush then load them. I'm not sure exactly what bullets he started with, but it looked really cool, and I did see some shot into water jugs with spectacular results. And they fed like butter.

This was in the '80s and I'm surprised someone hasn't tried it again.

And just from my experience in my small 9mm and my buddies gun too we had issues with the Hornady plastic tip bullets hanging up on the feed ramp more than once. I only use their .38 rounds in my J-frame now. Note that both of our small autos were pretty new at the time. They may work better after more break-in. But I'm not carrying them in my pocket auto.
I remember seeing a 25 ACP with a small steel BB inserted into its cavity marketed commercially.
 

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Back when hollowpoints first started becoming popular there were all sorts of stories. One popular one was filling the cavity with mercury! :rolleyes:
IIRC, that trick was shown on TV many times.

Or black powder.

Or plastic explosive.
I saw that mercury trick done in a movie, I think it may have been "The Exterminator"
It was a long time ago, so I can't be 100% sure.
 

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I would be hesitant to add mass/weight into the hollow point cavity. A projectile has a Center of Gravity, Centrr of Ballistics (flight) and a Rotational Center (spin) of Mass. Any mass/weight added into the HP cavity will disrupt one if not all three of these causing the projectile to tumble, and/or wobble and keyhole affecting accuracy. At short ranges the effect may not be noticeable but the longer the range, the greater the effect.
 

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The theory I have heard most and makes most sense is that by filling the cavity the bullet is no longer a "hollow point" and not restricted by ignorant/anti gun/liberal/socialist/progressive/democrat states that ban hollow point ammunition.
 

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Discussion Starter · #31 ·
I would be hesitant to add mass/weight into the hollow point cavity. A projectile has a Center of Gravity, Centrr of Ballistics (flight) and a Rotational Center (spin) of Mass. Any mass/weight added into the HP cavity will disrupt one if not all three of these causing the projectile to tumble, and/or wobble and keyhole affecting accuracy. At short ranges the effect may not be noticeable but the longer the range, the greater the effect.
This makes a lot of sense. The distribution of the mass of the bullet is critical for it to perform as designed. Make it top heavy or not concentric, you have problems.

From their video, it looks like the plastic is shaped to expand outward when it strikes an object. This outward expansion forces the thin edge of the hollow point outward, starting the expansion of the metal. Without the plastic and assuming that the hollow point strikes something soft (clothing) the edge would be as likely to expand inwards as outwards. Does that make sense?
This also makes sense. The shape of the nose of the bullet is more or less circular (roundish) and the hollow point truncates it. Force distributed on the nose (at impact) will attempt to force it inward and fight expansion. The insert or another substance forced into the cavity will apply outward force. As Capt. Methane stated in #22 above, a lot of technical advancement in bullets has occurred over the last 20 years.

Grumpy
 

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They would take a regular bullet drill it out, pour in some 4F and then top it off with a primer turned backwards into the case.
I don't know what fill they used but in the 1970s there were the Exploder bullets made just that way. There was said to be a shot pellet under the primer to whack the anvil on impact for more certain detonation. I saw one shot into a log. Nothing happened but a wisp of smoke out of the bullet hole. Nobody here was into gelatin or water boxes at the time.

Explosive rifle bullets were once well known by innovative safari hunters and the military. An explosive Minie ball was meant to blow up artillery caissons but it sure wouldn't do an infantryman any good.


he would press a steel BB into the end of a hollow point bullet until it was (almost) flush then load them.
I remember seeing a 25 ACP with a small steel BB inserted into its cavity marketed commercially.
The Hoxie Bullet Co. made bullets with steel balls in the nose to enhance expansion from 1908 -1922, available in most rifle calibers of the day.

Winchester made .25 ACP with BB nose bullets until fairly recently.

There was also a 1930s trick bullet with a hollow filled with grease and the lead swaged closed over it.

Lyman made moulds in the 1970s for bullets with a large hollow point meant to be filled with water (antifreeze or glycerine for winter hunting) and capped with a smaller gas check. Expansion was said to be abrupt.
 

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I can attest to the rifle version of the bullets in question working well, the Hornady VMax, Nosler Ballistic Tips, and Sierra BlitzKings will explode with excellent results, but at the velocities involved with the typical pistols, I'd rate them as 'questionable", although CorBon's PowerBall ammo was also an early proponent of the idea of an insert forcing the bullets to expand. I have no idea if they worked well or not.
I like those rifle bullets, but I do wonder about the pistol slugs.
 

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From their video, it looks like the plastic is shaped to expand outward when it strikes an object. This outward expansion forces the thin edge of the hollow point outward, starting the expansion of the metal. Without the plastic and assuming that the hollow point strikes something soft (clothing) the edge would be as likely to expand inwards as outwards. Does that make sense?
This was my thought, too. Think of the removable plastic rivets on your truck. You push the rivet in and it flowers. As mentioned earlier finite analysis and computers helps the design process. The physics of fluid flow and projectiles is fascinating!
 

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Discussion Starter · #39 ·
If only I had been exposed to a lot of this while in High School, I would have gone into the engineering field. :(
I honestly thought it was all drafting.

Grumpy
 
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