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Awhile ago I saw a thread either here or somewhere else but it was discussing the possibility that Arcus makes the new Kareen mkiii hi powers. I think the conclusion was that the new Kareen's looked like Arcus but wasn't made by them. Well I saw this on gun broker note that gun broker listed this pistol as a Kareen not a Arcus. I thought they made a mistake but check out the slide roll marks. Says KA on it. Now either someone fitted a Kareen slide on a Arcus frame or...
 

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I think that some jump to the conclusion that KA somehow signifies Kareen.
I don't believe it does, and since KA is all it says, we'll probably never know.
It may not even be English.

There are very many physical differences between the Arcus and later Kareens. The 2 tone finish that some Arcus and Kareens both use confuses a lot of people.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Yeah I saw that too. All Kareens I saw say "Kareen " on them. But then again all Arcus models I saw say Arcus on it. So what is this thing?
 

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Hi Bill, this very beautiful Kareen/Arcus. Kareens MK II/III were indeed produced in Arcus facilities. The markings on the slide depend on the customer wish. You might be able to find 2 identical handguns with different markings. All markings you'll see on Arcus or Kareen are Latin, they didn't marked guns in Cyrillic as far as I know. If I'm reading correctly the serial, this particular gun was produced in May 1998, which seems plausible by looking the old style beaver tail.
Arcus have seized their small arms production. Now they are making only RPG7 rockets.
 

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This subject pops up from time to time.

Compared side to side, the later Kareens and the Arcus 94 Hi Power clone are quite different. Superficially, they appear to be quite similar, because both are often seen in the 2 tone Practical-like finish, and both sport a bent beavertail.

On closer inspection (see photos below) the Arcus is very different front the Kareen in several ways.

The Arcus is a bulkier pistol. Examining the the frame behind the thumb safety, there is a llot more metal there. The frame is larger. On the Kareen there is no extra metal behind the thumb safety.

On the Arcus, the rear of the slides appear heavier, are more square and not Hi Power like.
Another point of confusion is that on some later Kareens there are Arcus-style cocking serrations, on other later Kareens the standard Hi Power cut is still used.

Moving to the angled trigger guards, the front of the Arcus trigger guard is slanted forward towards the front, while the the Kareen trigger guard is more squared off and vertical at the front.

On the Arcus, the front of the frame/dust cover is angled forward. The Kareen has a standard vertical, Hi Power-style dust cover.

For those of you who remember, GP35FN from the now erased Hi Power Owner's Forum,
wrote that after Kareen halted using FEG components they switched to using Israeli made parts.

Some time ago I emailed Arcus for any information on possible Kareen connection.
They did not respond.

Arcus on left. Kareen on the right. Click on them and they get bigger.
 

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Excellent observations Burgs. Your old eyes didn't missed a thing.
I've posted the first picture below in the old forum - it shows the Kareen MKII belonging to a friend of mine. The other picture shows a random image spitted out by google search.
You can see on both of them mix and match of characteristics of both (94 and Kareen) guns. - the presence of metal behind the safety lever, the shape of the trigger guard, different styles dust covers, the small and the lack of beaver tail.
The thing is that Arcus did what the customers wanted to be done. The customers in the Kareen case were the Israelis. If at some point the Israelis have provided a rest-overs of the gun components for assembly I can't tell - this information wasn't shared with me.
Here's an interesting thing - on the picture of the Kareen from AIM Inc. there is a "MK III" marking . This would be ok IF this gun had the extended and pointed down beaver tail which is a must in the latest Arcuses and Kareens. Instead, what we see here is an exact copy of the early Arcus 94 BUT with trapezoid top of the slide which is to be seen in the Arcus 98 DA and later 94s.
On the other side - the Kareen you've posted is marked MKII and it has all the characteristics of the newer production guns.
The conclusion - MKII is more "modern" than the MK III :rock:

What I'm trying to say with my poor English is that there is no way of categorizing the different generations (MK II/III) of Kareens and say for sure "the MKII has these characteristics and the MK III these..." There always be examples showing the opposite.

Were MK II and III produced/assembled in Arcus Co. - YES, for sure.
Were they produced in Israel - I can't tell.



 

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I do not agree with the Arcus/Kareen "Yes for sure" statement, but I do agree that the MK II and MK III production, and the various physical features they present are somewhat jumbled. The various Kareens that I've handled at SARCO and various gun shows have quite a variety of different features - almost as if there was a semi-custom menu of features to choose from.

As to the second photo from AIM, Inc. - to reiterate, I'm not convinced that KA stamped on an Arcus equates to Kareen. Two letters don't make a word, and why Kareen would shorten their brand name to an ambiguous KA makes no sense to me. In addition to that, I have only seen the KA stamps on pistols with obvious Arcus features, and not MK II and MKIII pistols with otherwise Kareen Hi Power (non-Arcus) features.
As for Aim being an authority, they were one of the sources for the counterfeit FEG Hi Powers being sold as FNs, so I wouldn't put all of my eggs in the Aim basket when it comes to Hi Power IDs.

If one goes to YouTube and types in "Israeli Kareen" there's a very campy promotional video put out by Kareen and/or J.O. Arms. If one studies it closely, there are all sorts of interesting models, many of which we haven't seen here.
 

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Alright, I don't want to argue with you about that.
Here's a GB listing for a Kareen from J.O. Arms. labeled as manufactured in Israel.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=504664598#PIC

Take a look at the grips - they are the Arcus factory grips, they actually have the Arcus registered trade mark sign. I can't imagine someone buying a gun produced in Israel and changing the grips with Arcus ones.
They are only two ways for obtaining those grips - either you have an Arcus pistol and strip them from it or you go to Arcus facilities and get them from there. :scratch:
 

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I'm sorry. What I see is a set of patent infringement Hogue knockoffs.

Also, if one examines the grips of the Arcus and Kareen in photo #2 they are different.
For one thing the Kareen's grips have a border around the stippled area of the grip.

Here's a genuine set of Hogues for comparison:
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Well confusing is what it is. The only one I am really interested in is the Kareens the Arcus design strays too far away from the bhp design for my taste. I heard they are built like tanks but that's the problem I have with them they look like tanks!! Anyway thanks guys for all the info it was a curious find for sure. Alot of my latest internet Kareen searches pop up as the pistol I posted. Sites like gun broker and whatnot have them listed as Kareens perhaps they are being confused by them looking like them and or it is a out right deception... or not. Guess the jury is still out on this one.
 

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I do not see any Arcus indicators on those grips.
Furthermore, the identity of a firearm, especially a very used firearm, is not predicated on what grips it wears.

Here's the Kareen video (below) from YouTube. They Kareens shown are wearing all types of grips, including Hogue knock offs without any logos at all.

When this Arcus/Kareen issue first started on the "other" forum, you stated that your Arcus/Kareen information came to you from a "friend" who purportedly at one time worked for Arcus.
"A friend told me" isn't the type of substantiation that rises to the level of credibility.
You may believe him because he is your friend, but that doesn't work for those of us who don't know him.

GP35FN, who has studied Hi Powers for decades, stated that the post FEG Kareens were made from Israeli built components. Israel is famous for its firearms industry, this is not a stretch.

Photos of dissimilar pistols with similar paint jobs is not convincing proof.
"A friend of mine told me" is not convincing evidence."
As I stated earlier, I even emailed Arcus regarding the subject and got NO response.
One would think that if Arcus had contributed to making such a fine and interesting firearm they'd want to embrace it.

As for myself, I don't particularly care where the components for the post FEG Kareens originated from, but I DO have tremendous respect for GP35FN and his life's work.
GP35FN does not post statements carelessly, nor does he respond to questions off the top of his head. In that light, you can probably see how it looks when a new member and Arcus owner from Bulgaria starts posting that post FEG Kareens are really Bulgarian Arcus.
To counter the established history and refute GP35FN you are going to do a LOT better than "My friend told me", aftermarket grips and "KA" stamped on Arcus slides.
So, absent someone credible from FEG, Arcus, J.O.Arms, Israeli Arms, KSN Industries, or something similar, revising history to fit a Made In Bulgaria scenario is going to result in a lot of disbelief.

Here's the YouTube video I referenced. It actually appears to be 2 promotional videos spliced together.

Notice all the different sight, barrel, grip, etc. variations they show. There's even a compact, Detective length model.
You might also notice a lot of interesting shooting techniques demonstrated. I think if I tried some of them I'd get hospitalized.

FYI: Don't bother calling the (713) 789-0745 or the (713) 789-7513 telephone numbers shown for J.O. Arms - they no longer work. Ask me how I know... :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyUQOjMeQEI
 

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Burgs, by all my respect, please remind me, when did I said that Kareens are Arcuses? If I have - I did wrong. I did say that they were manufactured in the same facilities but does this make them Arcuses? Please, don't put words in my mouth!
You have every reason not to believe me and if I have to be honest with you, this is perfectly fine with me - it's a choice I respect.
I don't know what did you wrote to Arcus but think about this - will they answer an unofficial and not formal question, coming from a gentleman about who they have never heard, a question regarding and concerning their business relationships with an Israeli company, the answer of which might still have confidential character?
Let's make this clear - I'm not trying to convince neither you or someone else here in anything. I'm sharing information that I think might be interesting for the one started the thread.
I don't question GP35FN's authority by no means just like I don't question the words of an ingeneer who worked on the assembly line. Without knowing him, I admire people like GP35FN because of their knowledge and respect people like "my friend" because of their experience.
Here's one for you - when was the last time when you had both guns from similar production periods in your hands and compared them side by side and not picture by picture?
Don't get me wrong, I'm thankful for everything I've learned from you. Believe it or not, it's a lot, but your sarcasm and irony is something I didn't saw coming.
 

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Slav, we've gone over the dissimilarities over and over.
As far as emailing Arcus for information on their possible Kareen involvement, I've mentioned it here and on the "erased" forum several times for everybody to read.

So, you have something that you believe in. Keep at it. Find some proof that can convince the membership. As it stands now, you're like the guy on TV holding up a photo of his elderly grandmother saying that she was really Amelia Earhart who passed away just 5 years ago. It's an interesting story, but it's outside the accepted history.

So, now you have to go out and find some DNA.

Good luck. If anybody can find some DNA I think you can.
 

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