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Argentine FM Detective Hi-Power

25K views 88 replies 23 participants last post by  shep854 
#1 ·
Looking at a supposed FM Detective in original box with mags, cleaning rod, manual, and warranty registration card. The cover of the manual shows the wraparound grips, "Detective" and the FM logo on the right side of the slide. The left side has the correct engraving "Argentina Hi Power", etc. along with the import marks (California importer) The strange thing is there is no Detective and FM logo on the right side of the slide. This one also has flat 1911 style grips not the wraparounds as pictured on the cover of the manual. I've personally not seen a Detective model without Detective and the FM logo on the right side of the slide. Just wondering if this is an aftermarket slide, buit if it is, why would it have import markings? Can somebody tell me if this is a legitimate Argentine Detective? If not, what is it?
 
#3 ·
FM Detective

Passed on it due to no inscription. Kind of regret it though because I really just want a short slide and barrel. Oh well, another one with the detective inscription will come along eventually.
 
#4 · (Edited)
I have never heard of a counterfeit FM Detective. I don't think there'd be any money in it.
My suspicion would be a legit marking variation that we haven't seen here before.

There are FM Hi Power variants, like the FM02AR versions with factory SFS (both full sized and Detective) that are very rare or nonexistent in the USA.

If it isn't too late to scarf it up, you'd end up with a model that most of us haven't seen before.
 
#7 ·
what about the Compact Slide Conversion Kits that you used to be able to purchase, do they have the Detective engraving on them?
 
#8 ·
I think so, but not sure. Mine was bought as a complete gun at SARCO.

Check out the photo gallery at the top of this forum, there are several pictures of Detectives, both kit and complete.

Be warned though, it'll be hard not to get distracted by all the other cool Hi Powers.
 
#10 ·
I took your advice and went ahead and bought it again. First time I've ever bought the same weapon twice LOL! BTW, Cabelas reimbursed me every dime for sending the Detective back because they misrepresented it. Anyway, this time I got them down to $575 out the door based on no detective engraving on the slide. I'll send pics as soon as it gets in. BTW, Cabelas will ship in any used gun from any of their stores for $25. If for whatever reason you don't want the gun after it comes in, you either buy another gun or you lose the $25. In addition to re-purchasing the Detective I ran into a NIB, unfired FEG PJK with all accessories, manual, etc. for $450. Beautiful blued pistol. If anybody has any more information on this unmarked short- slide Detective, please let me know.
 
#11 ·
Forgot to mention. As of Wednesday Numrich had an ad for a Compact Detective Slide Conversion Kit for a little over $200 out of stock and you could go on their wish list. However, I contacted them and they stated they can no longer get them. BTW, the photo showed "Detective" on the slide.
 
#12 · (Edited)
I took your advice and went ahead and bought it again. First time I've ever bought the same weapon twice LOL! BTW, Cabelas reimbursed me every dime for sending the Detective back because they misrepresented it. Anyway, this time I got them down to $575 out the door based on no detective engraving on the slide. I'll send pics as soon as it gets in. BTW, Cabelas will ship in any used gun from any of their stores for $25. If for whatever reason you don't want the gun after it comes in, you either buy another gun or you lose the $25. In addition to re-purchasing the Detective I ran into a NIB, unfired FEG PJK with all accessories, manual, etc. for $450. Beautiful blued pistol. If anybody has any more information on this unmarked short- slide Detective, please let me know.
 
#16 · (Edited)
FM Detective Slide Kit

here are the markings on the FM slide I got in the detective kit I bought... The frame is FEG.

LEFT VIEW



RIGHT VIEW



V/r

Chuck
 
#17 ·
Thanks for posting that Chuck. This helps narrow the search. As soon as I get it back I'll post pics and details. There has to be a logical answer for what this is. I'm thinking maybe some entity ordered some without the Detective engraving on the slide. Is there anyway to access FM archives? I read in this forum from 2001 about a JLD Enterprises who imported the compact slides but am unable to locate a point of contact on their website.
 
#18 ·
JLD was an outfit in New England (Connecticut I think) that had some sort of presence in Argentina.

In the late 1990s they imported a BUNCH of license built DFGM 1927 into the U.S. at really good prices (as I recall about $249 each for the top grade) which were really excellent pistols. I do not recall them ever importing any HP stuff... but that doesn't prove they didn't...

They were good people to do business with... but I think they have been gone over 10 years now.

FWIW

Chuck
 
#21 ·
Argentine FM Detective HP

Here are the pics of the FM Detective without the "Detective" engraving on the slide. It appears to be a compact DGFM Model 90 and is unfired as is my full-size. See pic with it side by side with my full-size DGFM 90. The manual shows a Detective with wraparound grips, but the pistol has the flat 1911 style grips. See pic with aluminum follower magazine that came with it. My full-size came with a plastic follower magazine. Were these compacts without Detective engraving common?
 

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#22 · (Edited)
Mac,

Very interesting pics, for sure. The FM M90 is the Detective, in fact it's the first version of the Detective, preceding the M95 and the M02AR, with the model numbers matching the initial years of introduction - 1990, 1995 and 2002.
As as you noted, the user manual does say Detective Model on the cover.

If I were to speculate a supposition-ated conjecture, I'd say that your pistol is a very early example of the breed that was maybe possibly built before the Detective name was chosen, or the Detective rollmarks finalized.

Keep in mind, often, as a production run continues, a pistol's markings evolve somewhat. That's often what allows a tighter build date to be identified if one knows the clues.

You can see below how the Detective's markings got a little more ornate in the later production versions. At left is my personal M95 and on the right is the later M02AR photo taken from the web.

In comparison to CXM's M90 posted above, in computer speak, I'd think that you might have a "M90 1.0".
 

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#23 ·
Argentine FM Detective HP

Thanks for the insight Burgs. A little confused though. You said the FM M90 IS the Detective, however my full size Argentine (previous comparison pic) is also named the M90 according to the box it came in and the manual with pic on the cover which matches the pistol exactly. That's why I assumed one was the full-size, the other was the compact. Your thoughts?
 
#24 · (Edited)
Mac,

You're exactly right - Sorry I didn't explain that better.
The Detective is the short, Commander length version of the various full sized FM Hi Powers - so named because many plainclothes detectives were fond of carrying smaller versions of the full sized duty weapon - especially in the revolver days.

The M90, M95 and the M02AR all come in full sized and Detective models.
This is something that even the Belgians didn't do.
As a point of interest, my M95 Detective weighs almost exactly the same as my Browning 69C on a postal scale, so there's no weight savings to be had if you're switching from an FN/Browning Hi Power to a Detective.

Here's a web photo of the FM M02AR, Detective and full sized, side by side.
The M02AR is the M95 with the addition of the factory SFS (Safety Fast Shooting) system, just like FN introduced during the same time period.

Most of the M02AR photos I've seen show them with an unusual blue tint.
Like many of the M95s, the M02AR photos I've seen also show the FN style curved plastic grips. The curved plastic FM grips on my pistol are made of a different plastic than the Belgian versions - less shiny and softer. They are easy to pick out from the pile of curved plastic grips that get yanked off on day one.

On the M95, and I assume from photos, the M02AR, the FM fixed sights are also interchangeable with the FN/Browning MK III fixed sights. A lot of folks have wondered why the factory and Trijicon MK III fixed sights have a little gap under the rear face. I'm not sure if it's intentional or not, but this gap fits perfectly over the grooved slide rib on the FM Hi Powers.
 

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#25 ·
Great information Burgs, I appreciate it. In reference to my Detective's flat 1911 style handgrips. Unless they are aftermarket, is that unusual as well?

Are the M02ARs parts and/or mags interchangeable with the FNs or FMs?

Anyway, I'm glad to have a pair of FM M90s.

On another note. I've noticed that you have the extended safety's on most if not all your HPs. Are those the C&S extended safeties? Are they the C&S Extended safety or the Wide Extended safety? I'm trying to determine which one is sufficient.

Sorry to keep piling on questions. I noticed in another Post that you recommended keeping some extra parts on hand and I'd like to do that. Went through Numrich's online list and wrote down the part numbers and prices so I can compare to Browning. Browning doesn't have their HP parts listed so I'll have to call. Anyway, I noticed on Numrich in reference to the Extractors for a 9mm, it offers a standard and an "early style." Are you familiar with this? Does this "early style" apply to the extractor spring as well? Is this just an option or does the year and/or model determine which one you need?
 
#26 · (Edited)
Mac,

My extended safeties are all either FN MK III stype or SFS - mostly SFS.
The appearance of the SFS ambi looks almost identical to the MK III ambi because it was originally offered by FN as a factory option. It is now available from C&S as an after market kit. There is a 1911 version also.
On on both the Hi Power and 1911, it is a simple matter for an experienced gunsmith to switch back and forth between the stock and SFS configurations by fitting the appropriate parts.

Although I really like most C&S Hi Power parts, being a lefty I find that the C&S ambidextrous safety to be a torture device. I use the passenger side lever as a thumb rest. Doing this on the C&S ambi, because the passenger side lever is situated much higher and further back on the frame than the factory ambi, which requires the shooter to shoot with thumb straight up against the back of the safety and then forward at the joint onto the lever. This, especially with a HP 40, puts a lot of recoil stress on the thumb, which I find to be "uncomfortable". I had a C&S ambi on my Practical 40 and replaced it with the OEM part. If you are a righty then this isn't such an issue, since the driver's side lever is where it is supposed to be.

In the Numrich catalog, I believe that the "early style" extractor is original internal extractor used from when the Hi Power was originally introduced up until around 1964. The current, since 1964, external "standard" extractor is what you need. I generally get my HP parts direct from Bowning since Browning has better parts prices than outside vendors. I always get the extractor spring too and replace them both at the same time. They're cheap.

FN has a l o o o n g history with Argentina. Argentina purchased its first order of 1600 Hi Powers from FN in 1937. That's pre WWII for those of you who are hung over - making Argentina one of very the first Hi Power users.

FN and FM made Hi Power parts are interchangeable. FM made the FN FAL rifle and the Hi Power under license between 1969 and 1989, when FM switched to their own slightly different (mostly in the slide) versions with the M90.

FM is very VERY good at making Hi Power and FAL parts and weapons and the Argentine and Belgian companies have enjoyed a close working relationship. In fact, on a recent Outdoor Channel TV show, the NRA's Phil Schreier stated that FN had contracted FM to build FN FAL parts for their Belgian rifles.

As previously noted with the sights and grips, FM's Hi Power models have closely followed the Belgian company's design improvements.

The FM90 is roughly equivalent to the FN MKII, with a similar fixed front sight that is part of the slide and a (somewhat different) barrel rib. It does lack the MK II's ambi safety, drain hole and straight barrel ramp though.

The FM95 is equivalent to the FN MK III, while it keeps the M90's slab sided and ribbed slide, The M95 has the same dovetailed sights, ambi safety, straight barrel ramp and the same firing pin safety (FPS) used by FN on the MK III.

The M02AR is an SFS version of the M95, just as the FN SFS Hi Powers are versions of the FN MK III.

There's a gunsmith near Ft. Bragg, NC, who has done some nice work on FM Hi Powers by returning the slab slide to the traditional "Hi Power cut" profile at the front of the slide. They look really good. He's a member on this forum as "Metalmole".
 
#27 · (Edited)
No doubt the FM's are strange birds mine came from an estate sale looked brand new with great parkerized finish and wood grips.It has the rib with 3 dot sights and small safety,rear sight is dovetailed but front is not.Nothing on left side but FM Hi Power industria Argentina and Detective on the right side with the FM logo.Great little gun and shoots like a big un but heavy for its size.Bottom of trigger guard says CAI VT 9mm.Ser.No. 361xxx.Not sure if its a 90 or 95.
 
#28 · (Edited)
With the fixed, built as part of the slide, front sight and small safety that would be a M90.

Here's a FM M95 variant we don't see much in the United States.
On the tag, the word "Lujo" translates into Luxury or Deluxe:
 

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#29 ·
The serial number on your Detective..349*** is a bit earlier than mine at serial # 361***. Perhaps Mr. Burg Esq. theory on your gun not being stamped "Detective" due to being and early model, will hold water!! Perhaps folks that own Model 90 Detectives will offer their partial serial numbers so as to get and idea of production numbers.
 
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