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Discussion Starter #1
I finally got around to doing a little polishing on the disconnector sear, hammer and Series 80 FPS parts in my P-12. I have done this on three other PO. I'm not trying to lighten the trigger just make it smoother and perhaps a bit more reliable.

The parts in the three previous guns were not match grade, thats for sure, but seemed adequate. The parts in the P-12 were junk.

There were mold lines down the middle if the disconnector, the sear cut on the hammer had rounded edges and the prepped area on the sear showed a casting flaw or some kind of void in the middle of it.

Interestingly this gun broke the lug off of the recoil sprg. plug on the third shot I ever fired and after replacment the barrel bushing broke on during the next mag full of ammo. The gun was repaired by PO and seemed to be OK after that.

Further, on the previous guns the parts had just been dropped in. The parts on this brand new P-12 showed signs of some attempted polishing on the mold lines on the disconnector.

Do I have a gun with a bunch of out of spec parts that someone tried to "correct" during assembly?
Do I have a returned gun that was turned around and resold as new?

What should I do about this?
 

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Discussion Starter #3
On a forum like this you are going to read a lot of problems. The majority of people who have no problems will not write about these non-existing problems. Case in point I have owned six PO altogether but it is the P-12 that is the subject of this post because it is the only one to give me trouble.

If you want a realistic evaluation of POs my opinion is a good design compromized somewhat by poor parts jobbers. There is nothing wrong with the major parts but to meet their price point PO bought internal parts from a jobber that sometimes supplies substandard parts. Cast parts that are poorly cast, sloppy machining on some parts and bad heat treating on others making them brittle.

By using cheaper small parts PO saved maybe $100-150 USD on each unit. Most of the time these parts are adequate and when they aren't PO will made them good. Their customer service is very good.

I believe is was a deliberate plan to gamble on cheap parts and set up a good customer service dept. to handle things when they loose the bet. This is actually not an uncommom business plan.

Check all the parts in the pistol if any look substandard then give their service dept. a call. I'll bet they will send you replacements with no questions. If the parts look OK polish them where needed since you have them out anyway. If you intend to get into competition or carry as a duty gun then throw out the small parts and buy some well known match grade parts and be done with it.

I think I just answered my own question.
 

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Rhino1254 said:
Seems like all I hear is bad stuff about Paras. I think I shouldnt have bought one.
Seems like you should search this Forum a bit more before passing judgement.
 

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"Interestingly this gun broke the lug off of the recoil sprg. plug on the third shot I ever fired and after replacment the barrel bushing broke on during the next mag full of ammo. The gun was repaired by PO and seemed to be OK after that."

This is just a guess but I'm wondering if the recoil spring wasn't too long on your gun.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
JeffC said:'This is just a guess but I'm wondering if the recoil spring wasn't too long on your gun."

I thought about that but why would that cause the barrel bushing to let go on a P-12? The sprg. does not put any pressure on the bushing in a P-12 the way it does on a full size gun. When I got the pistol back from PO the envoice listed parts replaced and there was not a mention of a recoil sprg.
 

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I keep hearing stories about these supposedly crappy parts in Para-Ord pistols. I have even heard that the LDA internals look like they were stamped out of a beer can (and I'll admit that they sort of do). But I've put more rounds through my 7.45 LDA in the last year than most shooters put through their carry gun in a decade, and it has had no problems at all. You guys can keep complaining, and I'll keep shooting.
 

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Mr George Wedge reads these forums. He works at para and has a lot of knowledge about the manufacturing of their piece parts. I know for sure the extractor on my 1640 is cast and the hammer and trigger are MIM. Beyind that, I haven't detail stripped my receiver (it's an LDA).

FWIW: seeing casting voids (air gaps) in a part almost guantees it is cast, not MIM. The MIM process injects the compound ion under extreme pressure so voids are not common. My degree in mechanical engineering was decades back so I'm not an expert. I do know that cast parts are typically only about 60 - 70% as dense as forged parts. MIM is about 95 - 97% as dense as forged. Most people today think a well made MIM part is superior to cast because of the increased density.
 

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Wylynn: I'll send you a PM with Mr Wedge's e-mail address. he gave me a new extractor when the one I had wouldn't hold tension. I'll wager he will replace any bad parts you have in yours.
 

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There does appear to be several stamped steel parts in an LDA trigger system, the most apparent one being the draw bar. I've had all the parts out of the LDA trigger system and I would not hesitate to say the stamped steel parts in the LDA trigger system are thick enough and strong enough for their intended use. As a matter of fact, after a thorough examination of the LDA trigger system I find it to be an ingenious piece of work.

I do not recommend anyone disassemble the LDA trigger system unless they are certified to do so. The reasons for this is, there is several small parts in the system that would be easy to lose or damage if the gun is disassembled in the wrong sequence and some of the parts can be reassembled incorrect, the gun will go back together, then if one tries to function test the gun several of the parts in the system can be damaged.

Regards
Bob Hunter
(816) 675-2340
www.huntercustoms.com
 

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FWIW, I am aware of only one documeneted case where the LDA trigger bar failed and caused an accidental discharge. Mr Camp posted it last year. Somebody was using a Pro-Mag magazine doing a speed reload and the mag was not going in. He beat on the bottom of it and there was an AD. Inspection of the gun showed the trigger bar had bent severely. The mag shell in an LDA rides about .050" away from the trigger bar, so it is conceivable that a mag that has play in it's fit could impact it if it is forced in at an angle.

One other point is that the trigger bar is a stamped piece of thin steel which is "coined" along its length to provide stiffness. That means a long dimple is punched in which makes it resistant to bending. That's an old trick to make a flat metal piece stiff, and it works. The downside is that if it bends at all (enough to "break" the indentation) it folds up like tinfoil. Overall, I think the parts are adequate for the job.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Bountyhunter , thanks for Wedge's email add., he and I are in contact. He seems to be very helpful.

I will post the outcome.
 

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wlynn5 said:
JeffC said:'This is just a guess but I'm wondering if the recoil spring wasn't too long on your gun."

I thought about that but why would that cause the barrel bushing to let go on a P-12? The sprg. does not put any pressure on the bushing in a P-12 the way it does on a full size gun. When I got the pistol back from PO the envoice listed parts replaced and there was not a mention of a recoil sprg.
Serves me right for speculating on something I'm unfamiliar with....my apologies :eek: .
 
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