I have settled on the Lehigh Xtreme Defender bullets in all of my carry and home defense pistols. Usually those loaded by Underwood. I use at least +P and +P+ when it's available. Yes, shot placement is king but velocity is the queen right beside him. These Lehigh bullets do not fragment nor expand but the flutes do tend to fling tissue outwards, making a temporary wound cavity that is larger than any hollow point ammo on the market. Penetration is consistent in gel tests and while adequate, is not excessive. The bullets are barrier blind and due to their round nose profile, work in virtually all semi auto pistols. What's not to like? Even their pricing is about the same (or less!) as other premium ammo.
Bullets such as the fragmenting type or Glasers tend to not penetrate very well and often leave massive flesh wounds that do not stop the fight quickly. While the FMJ (of any style, including SWC and flat nose) are noted for their failures which have been well documented over the years. They are simply not the best bullet for SD/HD. While they will work, an "instant" stop is pure luck or Bob Munden shooting skills, that 99% of us simply do not have. They work... eventually. In the mean time a 250 lb. thug is unscrewing your head. No thanks!
There are other bullets that work... Gold dots (especially the SB, or short barrel versions), HST, Golden Sabers, V Crowns, etc. Personally, I want every bit, every single percentage point, of advantage I can get. If using a hollow point, you want that bullet going as fast as possible, but not to the point it comes apart and doesn't penetrate (most 10mm hollow points were designed for the 40 Short & Weak and thus are not suitable for use in full power 10mm ammo). Personally, I like the 185 gr. Gold Dot HP in my .45's if I were to use up my limited supply of Underwood ammo. I have them stepping along fairly quickly at almost 1100 fps. They do not fragment (most bonded bullets have to be pushed extremely hard to make them not work correctly) nor do the petals fold back along the shank, making the bullet close to an FMJ after the initial opening... but they still penetrate well, so all is not lost! If using factory ammo (other than those using the Lehigh bullet) I usually choose the lighter bullets going as fast as they are willing to load them. However, I usually avoid factory ammo because they tend to load them much too lightly (Speer is very bad about that!).
Personally, I have, starting two years ago, transitioned from the .45 ACP to 10mm, although I still carry the .45 around my property. As much as I like the .45, I like the 10mm a whole lot more! With the light weight Underwood ammo, there is less recoil to deal with making follow up shots easy.
You use whatever makes you sleep better, as I will. I sleep like a baby!
Cheers,
Great article. I love my 45ACP, but might try a 10mm. Can I add one thing. It’s not cheap, but practice with the ammo you carry.
[email protected]
Best 45 ACP self defense ammo
I'm told Federal HST +P is pretty good. I just shot 20 rounds of it at the range. The recoil is sharper than the FMJ and I had to adjust to it. Looking for other opinions.
101 - 120 of 127 Posts
Not even remotely arguing with this, but just as a personal note, while I want a bullet that goes at least 12", I don't mind one that goes 30" in gel - .45 Ball only exits the human torso about half the time (it all depends on what it hits inside).Col. Jeff liked what worked best - at that time! Bullet technology has changed a whole lot since then and mostly for the better! The selection of bullets available today would probably not surprise most of the old timers but they simply wern't available to them then.
HST doesn't penetrate well? I'm going to call hooey on that statement! In the Lucky Gunner tests the 230 HST penetrated 14" while the +P version penetrated 14.9. Unless you're shooting an extremely fat person, those numbers will get the bullet well into the vitals. This is, by the way, about the average penetration depth for most of the premium self defense ammo.
Personally, I like to see more on the order of 16 - 18" of penetration, which my favorite bullets, the Lehigh Xtreme Defenders, achieve easily. But I don't live in any kind of city and I'm not in the least concerned with over penetration. My second favorite bullet, and my back up for the costly Lehigh ammo, are my hand loaded 45 ACP 185gr. Speer Gold Dots, which are definitely +P. Their penetration is not as much as the Xtreme Defender bullets but it's right up there with the best available.
And before anyone says anything about using hand loads for SD, #1., I live out in the boonies of Missouri where prosecution for using such ammo is pretty unlikely. #2., my ammo is better than anything you can buy. #3. If I ever get into my back up ammo, things have really gone down the toilet!
Factory ammo, once carefully inspected and chamber checked by the end user, is probably in the 99% reliability range, give or take a couple of tenths. My ammo is 100%. Period. End of story.
Cheers,
crkckr
I often have Winchester Ranger +P 230, or Federal HST 230 +P or Hornady Critical Duty in my S.D. handguns, but I also would not hesitate to carry Winchester or Browning 230 flat point FMJ. - well, to be honest, I'd rather have .45 ball than any .36 caliber handgun, even with the most modern expanding bullet (because if you hit bone going in expanding bullets, at less than 1800 fps often do not expand - now a .35 caliber carbine, say a .35 Remington, .350 Legend or even .357 magnum, I would be OK with those.
I've shot deer or boar with all of those rounds, haven't had any problems if I did my part.
Riposte
The main reason to use +P or +P+ in any platform is that it gives a bullet from a handgun a slightly better chance of actually opening as it's supposed to. Over the last 60 some years I've seen way too many holliw points fail to open in whatever medium you want to mention. I dumped the 147 9mm Black Talons because I had a bunch of failures out of a S&W 6906. I tend to end up with short barreled guns because they're easier to carry but they just don't work as well with holliw points out of a service sized pistol. We're talking about that little advantage again! I want every bit of that advantage I can get my sweaty paws on, no matter how slight or unlikely the need might be. Let's face it, hand guns are not great fight stoppers. The odds of your favorite bullet not working as it was designed are actually pretty high, so any little boost that will help it along is a good thing and personally, I'm going to grab it! I also tend to believe that any failure along the way is a fail for the type. I always use (or want to see) the cloth barriers used during gel testing because if it works with a cloth barrier it's likely to work without it, too. I like the deeper penetration even if the petals fold back along the shank which is usually what happens when a bonded bullet is launched at a higher than design velocity. They provide nice wound channels while the petals are opening although the bullet acts more like an FMJ after the petals fold. What is not acceptable is sheding petals which is what happens to the Winchester 180 10mm bullets at 10mm velocities. Clearly this bullet was designed for the 40 Short & Weak so I've no interest in it other than for practice. And why I will stick with my choice of the Lehigh Xtreme Defender bullets in every possible case! I know they work. Between my own testing and what I've seen on u tube (I watched one vid - since taken down by u tube - of a 125?lb pig, previously killed, that was shot in the shoulder with a 9mm 65 gr XD bullet. The bullet went thru to the off side, stopping just under the skin and everything between the entrance hole and the bullet was simply mush!) which convinced me regarding these bullets. I don't change my mind easily but then again I don't usually have be hit in the head with a piece of lumber, either! Good, compelling evidence is usually enough! Some people seem to need a board or maybe a BFR to the head to change their ways! Whatever, it's still a mostly free country as I've said before, use what you think is best!
Cheers,
crkckr
Cheers,
crkckr
I like Hornady or Federal HST.
Hornady and HST both have proven track records and are good choices, as is the Speer Gold Dot (when they can be found, that is!). Golden Saber and the Sig V Crowns are also good choices. The Ranger T series is good until you see their performance against cloth barriers, where they tend to fail. I'm also going throw in a plug for the Defiant line, which while pricy, seems to work under adverse conditions. There should be enough choices out there to satisfy just about everyone, although there will always be a few hold outs that can (wrongly, in my opinion) justify their use of ball ammo. It just has too much of a history of simply not working all that well in way too many cases, which is why the police don't use it anymore! Even the Army is using hollow points in their 9mm's now! While 45 ball is bad, 9mm ball is downright horrible as a man stopper. Yes, if you get lucky you might get a shot into a vital area that might stop an attacker right away but the odds are not in your favor. I like to have any little bit of the odds I can find, even if I have to cheat. While I'm generally more of a fair and square kind of a guy, in a gun fight, I'm more of a fairly suddenly and squarely in the back kind of guy!
Cheers,
crkckr
Cheers,
crkckr
😆I remember that line from an Andy Capp comic! 😆I'm more of a fairly suddenly and squarely in the back kind of guy!
Cheers,
crkckr
Damn mkk, you must be nearly as old as me! 71. That was a long time ago and I've always remembered that line!
Cheers,
crkckr
Cheers,
crkckr
You are old. I'm only 63! 😁Damn mkk, you must be nearly as old as me! 71. That was a long time ago and I've always remembered that line!
Cheers,
crkckr
Read it on the back of snack size bags of Andy Capp Pub or Hot Fries. Ate many a bag at the bar when meat and potatoes meant beef jerky, Slim Jims and Andy Capp Fries.
At least as old as dirt! Andy Capp used to be one of my favorite comics, along with about 30 or 40 others. That fairly & squarely line just stuck in my mind and has for a long, long time! I can remember song lyrics but not the names. Go figure. Always been like that. I have other bad habits as well but we won't get into those here!
Cheers,
crkckr
Cheers,
crkckr
I use the Federal 230 HST +P extensively in my carry guns. That was the round most recommended to me by local LE rangemasters and trainers for performance and reliability. It is a very accurrate round and I don't find it to be bad at all in recoil. I do use a 18.5 pound Wolff recoil spring in all my 5" guns.... maybe that is the difference.I'm told Federal HST +P is pretty good. I just shot 20 rounds of it at the range. The recoil is sharper than the FMJ and I had to adjust to it. Looking for other opinions.
The Number 1 thing you must have is a mind that operates during a lift threating situation, If your mind freezes, you die. Mind training needs to be done every day. Think out scenarios, look for cover, etc. You can access the threat, what to do, and take a head shot, center mass or whatever shot you have. Unfortunately, some officers will freeze and die. Prep the mind and the rest of your training will follow.M60, he did not readjust his aim, he just had to adjust to different recoil (and probably muzzle blast). A well placed round is a great idea, unfortunately, actually getting that perfectly placed shot is a lot more problematic in the real world. And who knows what the distance will be? Ask Mr. Dickens how many times he practiced shooting at 40 yards? I do... with a rifle. Longer distances, no matter how small the odds might be, are now in my pistol practice.
If you are in a gunfight for your life you want every advantage you can get, no matter how slight it might be. Never pass up the opportunity to get that advantage because your life, or the life of someone you care about, might just hang in the balance! Most of us carry a firearm because there is a slight chance we might actually need it, while knowing that the chances are pretty slim that we will actually have the need. An insurance policy we all hope to never have to cash in. But if you ever do have to cash it in, hopefully you won't find yourself "under insured!"
Cheers,
crkckr
I found the part where .45 ball exists the human torso half the time to be interesting. I guess how large the man is is also a factor. One large man hit by .45 hollow points by LE claimed they felt like bee stings.Not even remotely arguing with this, but just as a personal note, while I want a bullet that goes at least 12", I don't mind one that goes 30" in gel - .45 Ball only exits the human torso about half the time (it all depends on what it hits inside).
I often have Winchester Ranger +P 230, or Federal HST 230 +P or Hornady Critical Duty in my S.D. handguns, but I also would not hesitate to carry Winchester or Browning 230 flat point FMJ. - well, to be honest, I'd rather have .45 ball than any .36 caliber handgun, even with the most modern expanding bullet (because if you hit bone going in expanding bullets, at less than 1800 fps often do not expand - now a .35 caliber carbine, say a .35 Remington, .350 Legend or even .357 magnum, I would be OK with those.
I've shot deer or boar with all of those rounds, haven't had any problems if I did my part.
Riposte
Can you point us to where we can read about ball exiting/not exiting?
Do you prefer .45 ball over a well chosen .357 magnum hollow point, all other things being equal?
I like the 185 gr Speer HP hand-loaded to my specs.. certainly +p over 1000fps..
Frankly the 230gr ball isnt bad either, loaded up to 900 fps. Been loading both for personal own use for years.
Frankly the 230gr ball isnt bad either, loaded up to 900 fps. Been loading both for personal own use for years.
Federal Hydroshok 168 Grain... That Pin in the Center makes for 30% Greater Expansion.
I ♥ Sig 200gr Elite V-Crown in my Sig C3. Not because I believe it is a magic bullet, but because the power level is perfect for the gun. Powerful, but controllable.
There are several references, one is in a 1971 Colt magazine article by Massaad Ayoob, another was in a seminar I attended in the late 70's by John Farnam, Evan Marshall and Masaad Ayoob. another is persona experience, we have had few shootings here with .45 ball but none of the bullets have exited (I'm not saying that always happens) - one subject was only about 180 lbs., he dropped instantly and the bullet stopped just under the skin on the off side (it was at the oblique) - I have a copy of the autopsy in my files.I found the part where .45 ball exists the human torso half the time to be interesting. I guess how large the man is is also a factor. One large man hit by .45 hollow points by LE claimed they felt like bee stings.
Can you point us to where we can read about ball exiting/not exiting?
Do you prefer .45 ball over a well chosen .357 magnum hollow point, all other things being equal?
I think I mentioned shooting a buck with .45 ball that did not exit. I had an employer that also did it on a 100 lb. doe.
Yes I do prefer .45 ball (preferably a flat point) to the .357 in any bullet I have tried. I've shot a lot of stuff that bleeds with .357 hollow points with small effect (now in a rifle, they are fine - if you pick a sturdy bullet).
I admit, I have not really tired many heavy bullets in .357 or those new-fangled extreme defenders/penetrator - there may be hope for the cartridge yet - I do keep trying, I really want it to work !
Riposte
I found some old Cor Bon 125 gr. +P in the stash and put it in my Kimber Custom II LW 9mm. There may be newer and better stuff out there, but this is still effective.So I’ve glossed over this whole thread and it took till post 50 for someone to even mention Corbon which used to be a very highly respected round 30 years ago, and is what I carry.
Compared to the newer stuff on the market, how do they stack up these days?
A few years back I acquired a goodly supply of Winchester 1911 230 grain flat tip ball ammo. The bullets, not the cases are nickel plated. In my mind it was the perfect FMJ round, with the flat nose providing extra stopping power. In my Kimber Classic Custom, which was always a fickle feeder with JHPs, it’s what I carry. In my Ruger SR1911, a better feeder with JHPs, I carry any of several 230 grain JHPs, with the extra two magazines I always carry loaded with the Winchester 230 grain flat tips.
In my Beretta PX4 Storm .45 I carry Remington 185 grain Golden Sabers. In my S&W Shield .45 I carry Remington 185 grain +P Golden Sabers, or Winchester SXT 230 grain +P JHPs.
In my Beretta PX4 Storm .45 I carry Remington 185 grain Golden Sabers. In my S&W Shield .45 I carry Remington 185 grain +P Golden Sabers, or Winchester SXT 230 grain +P JHPs.
Weldon, even a full wadcutter doesn't cut much of a wound channel. Anything that reduces whatever a wadcutter can do ksemi wadcutter, flat nose, etc) simply reduces whatever trauma a wadcutter can do. In other words, they don't work all that well, especially when compared to a working hollow point (Gold Dot, HST, Golden Saber, V Crown).
All that said, there is always something to ve said for a nearly 1/2" hole in someone! Still, people can not only survive a surprising number of such holes, but continue to fight with some determination. Hollow points tend to reduce that determination substantially!
It's your life, your choice. I just hate to see people have confidence in something that has been shown not to inspire confidence! Get a couple of boxes of HST (enough to fill your mags and a few to practice with) and increase your chances of surviving an actual gun fight. You don't need 1000's of rounds, just enough to get you thru a sticky situation. Yeah, your FMJ might see you thru but it just won't do as well as a proven hollow point. In fact, if you have no confidence your pistol can't handle hollow points (some 1911's are known for this) but some of the Underwood loading of the Lehigh Xtreme Defender ammo, which is what I carry in all of my SD/HD hand guns. Personally, I think it's the absolute best ammo you can get at any price!
But again, it's your choice, your life. Is it worth spending a $150 on? Only you can answer that!
Cheers,
crkckr
All that said, there is always something to ve said for a nearly 1/2" hole in someone! Still, people can not only survive a surprising number of such holes, but continue to fight with some determination. Hollow points tend to reduce that determination substantially!
It's your life, your choice. I just hate to see people have confidence in something that has been shown not to inspire confidence! Get a couple of boxes of HST (enough to fill your mags and a few to practice with) and increase your chances of surviving an actual gun fight. You don't need 1000's of rounds, just enough to get you thru a sticky situation. Yeah, your FMJ might see you thru but it just won't do as well as a proven hollow point. In fact, if you have no confidence your pistol can't handle hollow points (some 1911's are known for this) but some of the Underwood loading of the Lehigh Xtreme Defender ammo, which is what I carry in all of my SD/HD hand guns. Personally, I think it's the absolute best ammo you can get at any price!
But again, it's your choice, your life. Is it worth spending a $150 on? Only you can answer that!
Cheers,
crkckr
Thanks for the post. I really appreciate it.There are several references, one is in a 1971 Colt magazine article by Massaad Ayoob, another was in a seminar I attended in the late 70's by John Farnam, Evan Marshall and Masaad Ayoob. another is persona experience, we have had few shootings here with .45 ball but none of the bullets have exited (I'm not saying that always happens) - one subject was only about 180 lbs., he dropped instantly and the bullet stopped just under the skin on the off side (it was at the oblique) - I have a copy of the autopsy in my files.
I think I mentioned shooting a buck with .45 ball that did not exit. I had an employer that also did it on a 100 lb. doe.
Yes I do prefer .45 ball (preferably a flat point) to the .357 in any bullet I have tried. I've shot a lot of stuff that bleeds with .357 hollow points with small effect (now in a rifle, they are fine - if you pick a sturdy bullet).
I admit, I have not really tired many heavy bullets in .357 or those new-fangled extreme defenders/penetrator - there may be hope for the cartridge yet - I do keep trying, I really want it to work !
Riposte
I definitely prefer flat nose to round nose.
Through a carbine, a .357 is quite a bit more powerful. I guess the way to go with the carbine is 180gr hollow points or 158gr soft points. Wasn't the second load made for carbines in mind?
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