1911Forum banner

1 - 20 of 31 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
39 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Any opinions on best ammo for self defense for Kimber 1911? Differences for home defense vs. conceal? Over-penetration issues, etc.

Also...what ammo do you like if a 12 guage shotgun is your preferred gun for home defense.

[Apologies if this has been addressed recently and I missed it during the look-back.]

Thanks

Chris
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
27,692 Posts
I wouldn't worry about overpenetration. If you are worried about where your bullets are going, I would worry about the ones that miss. Country wide the average hit ratio for LEO's is about 25%.

Also be aware that penetration in ballistic gelatin is much deeper than in flesh. Flesh usually averages about 40% of the depth of the same load in ballistic gelatin.

Deep penetration is essential. In a 5" .45 I like 230 gr. Gold Dot bullets at +P velocities. Proloads or Black Hills. They seem to be the best at staying together and penetrating deeply.

For shotguns in the house, I like low recoil 00 buck. Ranges will usually not be over 30 ft unless you have a hell of a house. If worried about misses go with #6 bird shot.

Carry a load to get the job done. Stay away from small bullets that tend to fragment. They don't penetrate deep enough to reach vitals on anything but a frontal shot and maybe not then. If you have to go through an arm or shoulder to get to the vitals, a lightweight bullet won't do it.

------------------
"What most of these people need is a good slap upside the head. What I don't need is any more lawsuits." John "The Tooz" Matusak
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
591 Posts
Honestly I don't think it makes a whole lot of difference. Pick any one of the premium .45 ACP JHPs and make sure it works in your gun. Whether you believe in Marshal & Sanow or Fackler, most of the .45 JHPs rate pretty highly.

And choice of ammunition is well down on my list of what is likely to make me survive a lethal encounter...

For 12 guage, I stick with 00 buck.

M1911
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,058 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
548 Posts
Ken Hackathorn's comment about this was: "Whatever is free or cheapest and works in your gun reliably. There's not much difference between them in the real world."
 

·
In Memoriam
Joined
·
683 Posts
Sounds like Headhunter got it right. The first thing to consider is what feeds most reliably in your weapon. If that's hardball, so be it. You're not losing all that much in "stopping power;" there's no such thing as a magic bullet. We're talkng about handguns here, and there's no such thing as a reliable stopper in a defensive handgun load.

The second point to ponder is whether it will penetrate deeply enough to reach vital organs. As a general rule, the faster the bullet expands, the less it penetrates. They're doing wonderful things with ammuntion these days, and JHP bullets both expand and penetrate more reliably than they used to, but the laws of physics have never been repealed, and JHPs are still iffy things.

Finally, after everything else has been considered, you want the bullet that will create the largest possible wound channel, causing the most damage to your attacker.
JHPs will usually make a slightly larger wound channel than FMJ.

When it's all said and done, if you feel more comfortable carrying JHP ammo, if your pistol is 100% reliable with it, go ahead. On the other hand, if you prefer the feed reliability of FMJ, don't worry about it. The 45's reputation was earned by hardball. I usually carry 230 gr. FMJ in my 1911; my old Colt Commander is more reliable with hardball, and to tell the truth, I haven't even tried JHPs in my Springfield 1911 yet. I have fired some of the new Federal 200 gr. +P 45 EFMJ (Expanding Full Metal Jacket)and it feeds jsut as well as standard ball. I tend to prefer predictable performance, and I know what the 230 FMJ will do; it will punch through, leaving an entrance wound roughly the size of a 38 WC, and will penetrate very well, possibly exiting the body, depending on the size and bulk of the target. Whether it exits or not, unless it hits something hard, it will not be deformed. I'm not putting as much trust in statistics or anecdotal studies as I am in my own experience. No, I've never shot or killed another human being, but I HAVE shot quite a few injured animals, mostly
whitetail deer that have been hit by automobiles, but not killed, and a whitetail can be pretty hard to stop when its fight or flight instinct is in full operation. I've never had any trouble stopping a deer with a 45, using JHP, LSWC, or FMJ.

I DON'T advocate buying the cheapest ammo avaialble for defensive ammunition. Quality ammunition isn't much more epensive than the cheap off-brands. Again, use whatever feeds most reliably in your gun. When your life's on the line, the best ain't good enough.

------------------
Roger Shambaugh
Ottawa, Kansas
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
39 Posts
Discussion Starter · #8 ·
How about "black talons"...if I am thinking of the correct name.

I spoke with a local police officer recently, and he said they used to use them but got rid of them....I guess because of their excessive internal damage? Didn't make much sense to me....

Chris
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
27,692 Posts
Black Talons, (at least the same bullet type) are still available as Ranger T loads. You will have to look some to find them but they are out there.



------------------
"What most of these people need is a good slap upside the head. What I don't need is any more lawsuits." John "The Tooz" Matusak
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
548 Posts
Originally posted by KSLawman:
I DON'T advocate buying the cheapest ammo avaialble for defensive ammunition. Quality ammunition isn't much more epensive than the cheap off-brands. Again, use whatever feeds most reliably in your gun. When your life's on the line, the best ain't good enough.

Agreed. The context Ken was talking within was well known quality ammo, not necessarily the cheapest thing you can find.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,518 Posts
Originally posted by C Alan:
Any opinions on best ammo for self defense for Kimber 1911? Differences for home defense vs. conceal? Over-penetration issues, etc.

Also...what ammo do you like if a 12 guage shotgun is your preferred gun for home defense.

[Apologies if this has been addressed recently and I missed it during the look-back.]

Thanks

Chris
I can't add much to the excellent posts here so far. Just perhaps an overall perspective.

There is not really any power in any handgun round (normal defensive types anyway) to be "transferred" all they do is make a hole. Rather than getting fixated on what is the "best" it may be a better philosopy to "fail safe" your handgun ammo selection.

I have found that the number one cause of failures to stop - by a huge margin - is the failure to hit. Rapid misses with a .44 magnum do not stop many fights (though I witnessed a miss with a .357 do it one day). The "fail-safe" for this is, of course, training and practice.

The second major cause, given a good hit - and no that does not mean a torso hit, it means a shot directed to the sternum - is failure of the bullet to reach the intended organs. This is the result of a bullet which disentegrates or just runs out of steam too early, giving inadequate penetration. It is unfortunately no all that uncommon with reputed "stoppers" like the .357 mag or the 9mm with light jhps but can show up in bigger guns with fragile bullets (frangible bullets in all calibers often fail to penetrate more than 4-6 inches). The "fail-safe" for this is a sturdy bullet that may expand but not fragment. Testing is required here, it is not good to guess at what a bullet will do.

Go careful,
Jim Higginbotham
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
118 Posts
For years, I carried 165 gr. Hydra Shoks in my 1911. However, I have recently switched to 230 gr. in either Hydra Shoks or Golder Sabers. Either works in my SA Champion, and both seem to work better and more accurately.

12 GA.? 00 Buck. I raise geese & ducks. The 00 Buck works great on dogs or coyotes.

------------------
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
72 Posts
For pistols in my favorite calibers, I go with Winchester Rangers. Just about the closet to Black Talons as you can get. For shotguns, 3" magnum 00 buck.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
605 Posts
Years ago I carried my handload of 200gr SWC (H&G 68 style) with a lots of Unique powder. I was very impressed with this ammo when shooting hogs so I figured it would work on 2 legged varmins too.

I recently shot some of this ammo over my chrono and was suprised to see just over 1,000 fps avg. from my full size 1911.

Now I carry 230gr Hydrashok in full size 45ACP pistols and 165 Personal Defense ammo in compacts.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,457 Posts
Bullets make holes. If you hit vital parts accurately & fast, you'll cause damage. Everything else is just mental masturbation. Just make sure that get enough penetration to hit something important. As a colleague said, "gut shots hurt but having your heart blown through your spine is a bitch."
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
416 Posts
I did some tests with the Federal 200gr +P EFMJs with some telephone books a while back. The rounds always fed proper and expanded very well in the telephone books (which are denser than tissue) with penetration at 3". The shock wave broke the bricks behind the 5" telephone book, so a sternum shot would definitely prove fatal.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,518 Posts
Originally posted by blinder:
Bullets make holes. If you hit vital parts accurately & fast, you'll cause damage. Everything else is just mental masturbation. Just make sure that get enough penetration to hit something important. As a colleague said, "gut shots hurt but having your heart blown through your spine is a bitch."
Good point. Perhaps that's why we call it Bull-istics


Best regards,
Jim Higginbotham
"Front sight press...repeat as needed"



[This message has been edited by JimH (edited 07-06-2001).]
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
75 Posts
Wilson Combat sells some 45 in Hornady 200 JHP XTP I believe they would do just find. I carry a 1911 full size and find that most the time 230 match ball by Federal or Winchester are what I carry. I believe shot placement is the key, there are no magic bullets. Use what will feed in your weapon because reliability is the #1 priority
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,456 Posts
<>> i agree with lawdog1834, if it doesn't go bang when you pull the trigger, it makes no difference what kind of ammo you are using. i would be concerned more about penetration then, overpenetration myself.
raspy
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
39 Posts
C Alan, I guess I have to agree with BillD about using small shot in the house in your shotgun. At the ranges you are talking about 10 to 15 yrds a target load of 71/2 shot will put a 6" to 10" hole in anything at that distance. I'm not familiar with the lower recoil 00 buckshot, but I am the hunting loads they use down here in the swamps of Florida. These old boys kill running deer at 70yrds. Those 00 buck are .33 calb., at about 1300 fps., and will penitrate several layers of dry wall. Sure hope you don't hurt someone sleeping a couple of rooms away. Take it from an old trap shooter the smaller shot will do the job inside at those distances, and the drywall will stop the small shot.

Happiness is "25 straight"
 
1 - 20 of 31 Posts
Top