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Under stress, with proper tactics (look at the threat or look at what you are doing?)....

I understand how to index a mag by running my index finger up the front of the mag, but I am not clear on the best way to guide it into the mag well and what exactly to touch with my index fingertip.

First of all, I assume I shold be feeling for the tip of my hollowpoint to orient the magazine in my hand. Once I orient the magazine in my hand and am going to guide the mag up to the magwell, should I keep my finger on the tip of the bullet, or what?


I can think of a number of ways of what to do at this point. Keeping in mind that under stress the details may blur.

What exactly do I feel for with the point of my index finger, when guiding the mag up to the mag well?

Should I stick my finger INTO the mag well, then draw it, rubbing the back of my finger along the inside of the mag well, then pull the finger out and slide the mag in? (kinda like how a "samurai" indexs a sword, then sheaths it?).
Or, should I just touch the front of the mag well with the tip of my index finger and slide the mag in?

I seem to fumble a little when trying to get the mag lined up and into the mag well, so I am looking for ways to make my aim better and faster.

Thanks!
 

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You're making this one WAY tougher than it is! Relax Thad !!!

The sole purpose of the pointing finger is to "aim" the mag into the gun. If your pointer finger is outstretched along the length of the mag tube, you have a better idea how your mag is oriented. Your body and brain are pretty good at knowing which way your finger is pointed. That will help in seating the mag with the correct orientation to the mag well. As you are seating the mag, take your finger off the tube and allow the grip to slide underneath this finger as the mag is pushed home. This too helps your brain to keep the mag from going in cocked in one direction or the other.

You should always carry your mags with the bullets facing forwards (towards your belt buckle). When you grab the mags with your weak hand properly, they will be in the correct position the seat them in the right direction. Practice this! It's easier done than said.

You want to bring your gun up to just below eye level when changing mags. This allows you to see both the threat and the gun when you need to change mags. Practice bringing the mag UP to the gun, not the gun down to the mag.

[This message has been edited by shane45-1911 (edited 05-25-2001).]
 

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Dittos what Shane said. Your finger isn't aiming toward anything on the gun, so much as the front crook of your strong hand pinky. Like Shane said, our brains and body parts are pretty efficient at knowing where the rest of the parts are without looking. I'm pretty sure that's the intent of the index finger thing.

Byron
 

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Thaddeus,
Check out Matt Burkett's book. He goes into great detail.`Shane is right on carrying the mags bullet forward. Don't put your finger into the magwell. You'll only do it once guaranteed! Pull your elbow back against your body and rotate the gun to your right. You can look the mag right into the gun and still see your target. Like anything else practice, practice, practice! After a few thousand you won't even think about it.
 

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Ditto above. I was also taught to put the square end of the mag in first, angled slightly to the rear, then square up the mag and ram it home.

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Steve
 

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Good advice from all above.

Suggest you practice in relative slow motion perfecting the steps and feel of what you want to accomplish. Go for smooth and effortless, not fast and forced.

As you gradually build speed don't allow yourself any shortcuts, do it like a martial arts form. Be rigorous with yourself.

At the start, the weak hand moves away from the pistol toward the spare mag as the strong hand drops the empty magazine. The two actions occur simultaneously.

If you have to reposition the gun in your hand in order to reach the mag release (I do), learn to do that smoothly with only the strong hand. Don't let the weak hand "help" to reposition the gun before it leaves to retrieve the new magazine from your belt.

As the weak hand brings up the new mag, the strong arm bends, the strongside elbow comes in toward your body and the gun is canted just below your line of vision so you can watch the magazine begin to go in the magwell when you practice.

Also always complete the mag change with a complete and proper two-hand grip with the sights on a pre-selected target. This means your weak hand must smoothly transition from slamming the magazine home to reacquiring the support hand grip.

Your goal when finished mastering this is to fire a shot at seven to ten yards, change the magazine and fire another shot within 1 and 1/2 seconds while hitting the "A" zone. Many can do this in even less time.

When I started shooting IPSC in 1981, the El Presidente drill was a common standard. The drill was to place two shots in each of three targets at 10 yards, reload and repeat two shots in each target. That's 12 shots and a reload in under 10 seconds.

As skills improved the El Presidente changed from a fixed time drill to simply dividing your score by the time it took.

Most good shooters can do this exercise in under 5 seconds with all A's now. I don't know if anyone has busted 4 seconds yet, but I suspect so.

A smooth, reflexive reload is a major part of this and many other IPSC/IDPA skills.

You probably wouldn't want to stand there in front of armed bad guys with no cover and try this.

BTW, Jeff Cooper taught me this drill in 1981. He also told some great tall tales.

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Originally posted by thaddeus:
Under stress, with proper tactics (look at the threat or look at what you are doing?)....

Why not do both? The method I have been taught gets the gun up where your hands, gun and mag are in your prephial vision allowing you to keep your attention on the perp and also get things done when the need arises.
 

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Originally posted by tonerguy:
If you have to reposition the gun in your hand in order to reach the mag release (I do), learn to do that smoothly with only the strong hand. Don't let the weak hand "help" to reposition the gun before it leaves to retrieve the new magazine from your belt.
An alternate point of view is that repositioning the gun with the weak hand, while admittedly slightly slower, permits better control of the weapon during the reloading process, especially for those with smaller or weaker hands. This would also be true if the weapon and/or hands were wet or gloved.

I admit to being a strong hand "flipper" but I don't advocate it in most cases.
 

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HeadHunter said, "I admit to being a strong hand "flipper" but I don't advocate it in most cases."

I also read some good reasons HeadHunter gave to use the weak hand to control the gun while dropping the magazine before reaching for the spare mag.

HeadHunter, is this what the tactical pistol schools are teaching now? I must be out of step with current thinking. Oh well, I'm just an "old flipper."


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In dealing with government remember that for every "freedom from..." you gain,
you lose a "freedom to..."
 

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mag index

I usually position my index finger along the front of the mag, with the tip of my finger where the tip of the second round is.

The base of the mag is in the palm of the hand. As the mag finds its way into the mag well, my index finger touches the mag well. At this point, I've got about 3/4 of an inch of the mag into the frame. I just roll my hand forward and push up on the mag with the palm as it slides up and in.

I normally shoot with my weak hand cradling my grip hand, so the motion puts it in the right place right away.
 

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With the magizine in your weak hand, put your index in the front of the mag, your thumb on the left side (Right handed shooter) and you middle finger curled arround the base on the right side of the mag. Insert the mag and as soon as your index finger touches the frame, release your fingers and seat the mag smartly with the base of your thumb. It sounds a lot more complicated than it is in practice. And there is the second most important part. PRACTICE, (Use a Dummy mag or make damn sure there are no live rounds anywhere near your practice area.
 

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I guess I gotta be different I carry my mags bullets pointing back. Now before everybody and thier mother flames me on this hear me out. to explain put your rig on.
Next put an empty mag in your mag pouch pointing backwards hold your gun in your strong {shooting} hand
and go for your mag with your thumb along the spine of the mag with the palm of your hand on the bottom of the mag as your thumb contacts the MSH of the pistol the mag will be entering the mag well. then push up your hand through to seat the mag and complete the the 2 hand grip.
the reason I reload this way is simple, under stress the turning of the hand to point the mag they way you fellas do it may become a bit shakey. pulling the mag out of the pouch they way I do it is a natural motion with no twisting of the wrist, therfore there is no other motion added to the reloading cycle which can under stress cause you to stick your finger in the mag well along with the mag {ouch!}.

In the 3 gun combat shoots I am involved with sometimes the string of fire can be over 40-60 rounds and with 8 round mags in my 1911 that is alot of reloading I might reload 13 times during a course of fire so any wasted motion on my part costs me time to get back on target.
This method has worked for me and has a natural feel to it.

All I'm saying is try it and see how fast you get back on target.
 

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thaddeus said:
Under stress, with proper tactics (look at the threat or look at what you are doing?)....Thanks!
I read a quick thought on this from one of the world famous tactical trainers. To paraphrase. Learn to reload until you can do it with your eyes closed and watch the threat.

I can't disagree with practicing it until you can, but when it comes time to do it, I'll say focus on the magwell and look it in. Have the gun high enough that you can see what you want behind it and when you complete the reload you don't have to raise or lower the gun but just extend it. To me loading the gun is first priority and you should have enough peripheral vision with a high gun to see whats needed. If you want to know what's the fastest and most reliable, just watch the big boys and girls at the practical shoots. Same thing. Just makes more sense to me.

I also don't understand the weaver so what do I know. good luck
 

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You should be able to do this in the dark or without looking.

Index finger of the weak hand touches the tip of the bullet for a couple of reasons: (1) to be sure there's a bullet there (!) and (2) to be sure the right end of the bullet is there (!!).

Flat to flat: Flat edge of the magazine against the flat edge of the magazine well. Insert with the heel of the hand and and, if the pistol is empty continue over the slide with the hand and cycle the slide to load the pistol.

Again, you do not need to look at the pistol to do this! Your eyes should be looking for threats!

-- Chuck
 
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