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The closest thing in appearance to a Bren Ten is the Armalite AR-24 9mm. If they beefed it up, made it in stainless and sold it in either .45 or 10mm I'd get one in a heartbeat.

!
The AR-24, far as I know, is discontinued.

In any event, Tanfoglio makes the closest thing to a Bren Ten we'll see this decade.

Witness Elite Match 10mm



Bren Ten

 

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The Witness actually works
THAT is highly debatable. The original magazines for the 10mm guns are notorious and never worked right, they suffered from as many slide and frame failures as the Bren Tens and their customer support was just as bad. This was from an "established"company-something that D&D wasn't.

I can't speak to what their guns in other chamberings were like but the 10mm guns were not so pretty good and they had D&D's experiences to look back on before blastoff.

The CEO commented on this two days ago.
Do you really think Gary Abrams was in the dark as far as what was happening when Eric Kincel was running this project from the end of 2007 until the end of December 2012 and all the a fore mentioned BS was going on?

Well, we'll see.......

Bruce
 

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The AR-24, far as I know, is discontinued.

In any event, Tanfoglio makes the closest thing to a Bren Ten we'll see this decade.

Witness Elite Match 10mm



Bren Ten

You can now get the SAR B6 Hawk the gun on which the AR 24 was built for Armalite by SAR via EAA. It is missing the "hump" at the rear and the triggerguard is squared but you can indeed still buy something fairly close to the AR.

I'm with you. I don't think we'll be getting a Bren anything this decade. How they planned to hook people via sheer nostalgia with a gun used in a television show that is severely dated (I liked it as a young adult or at least the reruns) where it only was on the screen for two years (the gun not the show) in a fairly obscure caliber? This is entirely beyond me.

BruceM: By all accounts EAA managed to get around the slide cracking with their 10mms by changing the profile of the slide. As for frames I am not qualified to say. The main complaint I heard when I almost bought one with a Wonder Finish seven years ago happened to be the slide cracking and not the frame.
 

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The main complaint I heard when I almost bought one with a Wonder Finish seven years ago happened to be the slide cracking and not the frame.
For those who may be interested, try Googling "Witness cracked frame". There are entries for guns in calibers other than 10mm also. Just saying.......

In the case of the Bren Tens, the fractured slides were due to porous (defective) investment castings and not a design defect. This was born out by Vltor's original engineering studies which included computer analysis of all stress risers in the slide and frame. In the case of the original EAA Witness 10mm guns, you be the judge. They had to change the shape of the slide to supposedly remedy the problem.

Bruce
 

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For those who may be interested, try Googling "Witness cracked frame". There are entries for guns in calibers other than 10mm also. Just saying.......

In the case of the Bren Tens, the fractured slides were due to porous (defective) investment castings and not a design defect. This was born out by Vltor's original engineering studies which included computer analysis of all stress risers in the slide and frame. In the case of the original EAA Witness 10mm guns, you be the judge. They had to change the shape of the slide to supposedly remedy the problem.

Bruce
There's a careful reason why I picked out the Elite models.

Tanfoglio makes several grades of Witness pistols.The kind we tend to find in a store are the Wonder Finish and blued Steel editions.Those guns are the consumer grade, mass produced offerings.

The Match and Stock series are finished at their custom shop, and let me tell you the Witness Stock slide to frame fit is good enough to shame any 1911 at that equivalent price.Those guns are almost never stocked by FFLs, and usually have to be ordered.Those guns also ship with square cut slides.The older 10mm models with the radiused slide profiles had problems with cracks near the ejection port, an issue since rectified. I personally own a late model Witness Steel in 10mm, and I've yet to see it choke on factory ammo.
 

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The thing is, while the Witness may have a passing resemblance to the Bren Ten, the two pistols are nothing alike as far as features go. Any similarity is purely coincidental. My interest in them has nothing to do with Miami Vice and my experience has been that most people voice opinions and make statements about about the guns based on what they know or what they have heard. Unfortunately, what they have heard and read is usually wrong and what they don't know is almost invariably a lot.

;)

Bruce

P.S. Slide to frame fit may mean a lot to you as evidence of high quality but as it pertains to accuracy, it means little if anything-similar in value to the full length guide rod. This is especially true in a service or combat pistol. What is most important is tight and repeatable slide to barrel lockup.
 

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The thing is, while the Witness may have a passing resemblance to the Bren Ten, the two pistols are nothing alike as far as features go. Any similarity is purely coincidental. My interest in them has nothing to do with Miami Vice and my experience has been that most people voice opinions and make statements about about the guns based on what they know or what they have heard. Unfortunately, what they have heard and read is usually wrong and what they don't know is almost invariably a lot.

;)

Bruce

P.S. Slide to frame fit may mean a lot to you as evidence of high quality but as it pertains to accuracy, it means little if anything-similar in value to the full length guide rod. This is especially true in a service or combat pistol. What is most important is tight and repeatable slide to barrel lockup.
I'd have to disagree.

The Bren Ten has more features-and dubious ones, like a manual cross bolt safety, and a double stack 10 rd magazine, among others.But it's at it's core, a reinforced CZ 75.

Just like a Witness. Insisiting otherwise is akin to saying a Springfield Armory loaded 1911 isn't a real 1911 because it's not made by Colt.Unlike the lamented Bren Ten, the Witness actually works and has a two decade history behind it.I don't see the USPSA International GM carrying a Bren Ten, after all.

So ,if anything, it's the Bren Ten which is the inferior product to the EAA import. I realize that concept is inducing hives in some folks, but there you go.
 

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If I were to ever buy a 10mm it would be one of these; even if they did release the Fortis. I'm not much for nostalgia (besides I'll be an old man before they ever try to release it) and after a lot of web searching I've found that there were a handful of frames cracking towards the rear. It seems to primarily exist in the lower cost Tangfolios.

The slide cracking began after the changed the slide from a square to a rounded shape, thus removing too much metal and weakening the weapon in critical areas. They have gone back to the more squared slide it seems to correct the issues.

I've also read a fair amount on swapping out the recoil spring routinely.
 

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From personal experience I must say that D&D, at their lowest, had better customer service than EAA currently has. Tanfoglio refused to admit they have problems with the witness 10mm line and MAY fix/replace parts; depending on the phase of moon, your astrological sign, or where the tide currently is.
 

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From personal experience I must say that D&D, at their lowest, had better customer service than EAA currently has. Tanfoglio refused to admit they have problems with the witness 10mm line and MAY fix/replace parts; depending on the phase of moon, your astrological sign, or where the tide currently is.
I wasn't around when D&D was in business, but when I called EAA recently to inquire about a conversion kit for my Witness they were of the utmost professionalism.

I find it weird that you'd conclude Tanfoglio won't admit there were issues with the slide cracking, since they fixed it by making the slides square cut on ALL models now, instead of just the Elite/Stock pistols.

Realistically, I don't get where the hate comes from.There were problems, but lets be fair- even Glock makes mistakes.I've yet to see a report about a Witness KB! due to case support problems, while Glocks G20 and to a lesser extent their .40 models had issues in that area. All things being equal, a slide which cracks visibly is a lot better then a gun which suddenly self destructs out of the blue.

Yet, Tanfoglios are considered " junk" while Glock 20s are promoted as a reliable alternative.:scratch:
 

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^^^^^^^^^
Genius really...take a .40 caliber SP Slide and barrel (and of course ream out the barrel for the longer 10mm) and then fit it to the 97 frame. The only question I have is what were they sing in the way of a magazine? Modded 97 mag? Did they tenderly swag out the magwell to facilitate EAA mags? I looked through the comments and found jothing.
 

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So , you're saying the Bren Ten is NOT based on the CZ-75s basic design?
What I'm saying is that a Bren Ten (which wasn't originally called the "Bren Ten") has some CZ features but is definitely NOT a CZ75 on 'roids with is another gunzine internet enhanced myth. For instance, if you just took a CZ75 and scaled it up from a 9mm sized gun to a .45 sized gun, things like length of pull and reach to the controls would be unwieldy. So the lockwork needed to be changed and once you start messing with that geometry, trigger pull characteristics go down the flusher. I don't recall seeing the type of sights, recoils spring/guide rod assembly, magazine drop, barrel bushing or loaded chamber indicator on a CZ either. Ditto for the rifling to accommodate the hot 10mm Norma round from Barrett Obermeyer, new type of combat grips from Guy Hogue, complete dehorning from the factory on any production contemporary CZ. Also, later built guns manufactured the way Tom Dornaus wanted them built instead of the way the original production manager wanted did work when using the magazines built the way D&D specified instead of the way MEC-GAR wanted to build the original dual caliber magazines. By the way, the original Bren Ten prototype was not even a 10mm (which Jeff Cooper called the .40 Special at the time), it was a .45 and it didn't have the crossbolt safety in the slide. That was added by Dornaus & Dixon's the legal dept.. When Jeff Cooper originally saw it, his original reaction was that he hated it. After he carried it awhile, he really liked it but what the hell, what did HE know anyway.

What Dornaus and Dixon did suffer from is later 20th century metallurgy and machining technology, investment castings from a low bidder(who no longer exists) and lack of capital in an early part of the Reagan era economy when 30 year fix rate mortgages were in the mid to upper teen percentage rates and interest rates on cars were so high most folks couldn't afford to buy a new car.

Bruce
 

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Bren Ten: I linked this one because it has a very nice exploded diagram that lists the parts...the CZ schematics do not.

http://www.mek-schuetzen.de/Blueprints/Bren_Ten_Pocket_Auto.png
CZ

It has a LOT of Vanilla features like the sear cage, trigger bar (looks a lot like the schematics I have for my Combat Cohai in regards to the majority of the internals…there are admittedly exceptions) There were some attempts at innovation but nothing Earth shattering and at its core it was still a CZ Clone (not a copy as it did integrate new features) I also have yet to see a loaded chamber indicator as any sort of improvement. Why? Even when a gun has one I never trust the damn things because it invites sloppiness and a lack of self-reliance (seriously, chamber-check your damn gun). The overall design stems from the CZ and it's not shocking since Cooper had a hand and he thought well of the CZ 75.

If sights and bushings made a gun not a clone than any bushingless barrel equipped 1911 with Novaks isn't actually a 1911 anymore because the 1911 came out with a bushing and itty bitty sights...it has some deviations from the original design but it's not Earth shattering enough for me to even feel like calling it a "new" firearm. There are also CZs with bushings and in point of fact the 97 has just this feature as do some of the target models. These are not innovations on their part but rather the recycling of old ideas.
 

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See the definition of clone in the dictionary.

Almost all autoloading firearms contains a plethora of vanilla parts wrapped around the either the Browning tilting barrel action or one or two others. They all fire projectiles from a self contained brass cased cartridge.

I am familiar with the schematics of both the 1911a1 and the CZ75 thank you.

And hereth the lesson ends.

Bruce

P.S. Just so you know, The loaded chamber indicator was, again, something Jeff Cooper required-the purveyor of sloppiness and reliance on others required. The prototype didn't have it. Funny how that works out and how little Uncle Jeff really did end up knowing as compared to the various gun board commandos. For my part, I sometimes find it interesting just to let them speak.
 
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