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Bruen and New Jersey

28568 Views 1087 Replies 27 Participants Last post by  lonerider1013
Went to the latest Nappen seminar tonight. Official title of it was, "Supreme Court, NYSRPA v. Bruen: How It Impacts Your State's Gun Laws". I'll give you the bad news first. NJ is bent on taking liberties with the most extreme gun laws in the nation. Some state goes off the deep end, Murphy thinks it's his job to top it. So tomorrow, Thursday, October 13 he will hold a news conference at noon to expand carry restrictions. Details are not fully available yet. ANJRPC will have them on their site later in the day. Here's what I have:

More "sensitive" places.
No carry on property you don't own without the property owner's expressed permission. Private or commercial.
Changes to application process.
Hefty, and I mean really hefty, fee increase.
Insurance and proof of insurance.
No carry in a vehicle.
Training requirements increased.

That's all I know right now about that. There will be immediate legal challenges as soon as these are inacted. Justice Thomas in his majority opinion called 2A restrictions civil rights violations. That's a federal crime. Government individuals can be held responsible for civil rights violations. Even judges. That's all about that until the news conference. They are trying to create obstacles to nullify Bruen. There are other things that came up. I'll post them later. Let this soak in.
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I’m going to have to disagree.
If we haven’t won anything yet, We wouldn’t be having this conversation. We would be wondering where to get liability insurance, etc.
Do you have your LTC? What county are you in?
If I recall correctly, we will be Defendents in this NJ attack against 2A, and maybe (maybe) become Plaintiffs going to SCOTUS.

The TI is not a win, it's a blinking red light, still many more months before we know if Pro2A is able to hold-off the attack.

When reading all these legal opinions for TRO and PI, the terms ‘likelihood to prevail/succeed’ are used as well as ‘Standing’. They seem to be the barometer used and not easily disregarded. Anyone getting caught up in a problem, would suffer ‘irreparable harm’, which Dan referenced several times as well. The State is going to have to pull a rabbit out of their hat/azz to be granted a Stay imho.
It's a metric (one of many) on the decision making Judicial measuring stick. One judge will decide one way, another judge another way. Law and it's meaning changes depending on what jurisidiction it's in, and who is deciding. :(
I think they could hear an appeal without issuing a stay.
Logical common sense no longer applies ;)
But, Bumb seems logical, so perhaps good probability the Stay is denied, and then off to appeals.
I think they could hear an appeal without issuing a stay.
How or why would a submission to appeals pave way for a Stay, which would essentially undo the Judge's TI. Isn't the Stay just a Motion, in which Judge will oviously deny it. From there the State will submit to appeals.

I guess question then becomes, can State again motion for Stay in appeals?
How or why would a submission to appeals pave way for a Stay, which would essentially undo the Judge's TI. Isn't thye Stay just a Motion, in which Judge will oviously deny it. From there the State will submit to appeals.

I guess question then becomes, can State again motion for Stay in appeals?
The state filed for a stay. Ask them.
Here's Dan's analysis. Any of this could change by appeal.

On May 16, 2023, federal Judge Renee Bumb issued a preliminary injunction (“PI”) in our carry case Siegel v. Platkin. The PI expands the number of sections of the new “carry killer” law (referred to as “Chapter 131”) that the State temporarily may not enforce beyond what the Court restrained in its Temporary Restraining Order (“TRO”) issued in January. Unless altered by an appeals court, the PI will remain in effect until the end of the lawsuit or until further order of the Court. Like the TRO, the PI also restrains certain pre-existing prohibitions as well. Also, as with the TRO the Court also clarified that certain provisions of the law are to be interpreted narrowly, thereby reducing the restrictive scope of the law.
A): The provisions of law that currently may not be enforced, in whole or in part, under the PI are as follows:
7(a)(6): within 100 feet of a place where a public gathering, demonstration or event is held for which a government permit is required, during the conduct of such gathering, demonstration or event.
7(a)(9): zoo [the injunction only applies to zoos, not the other items listed in section 9.]
7(a)(10): a park, beach, recreation facility or area or playground owned or controlled by a State, county or local government unit, or any part of such a place, which is designated as a gun-free zone by the governing authority based on considerations of public safety. [The prohibition on carry in playgrounds is still enforceable for now.]
N.J.A.C. 7:2–2.17(b) [preexisting law]: State Park Service property.
7(a)(12): a publicly owned or leased library or museum.
7(a)(15): a bar or restaurant where alcohol is served, and any other site or facility where alcohol is sold for consumption on the premises.
7(a)(17): a privately or publicly owned and operated entertainment facility within this State, including but not limited to a theater, stadium, museum, arena, racetrack or other place where performances, concerts, exhibits, games or contests are held.
7(a)(18): a casino and related facilities, including but not limited to appurtenant hotels, retail premises, restaurant and bar facilities, and entertainment and recreational venues located within the casino property.
N.J.A.C. 13:69D–1.13 [preexisting law]: within a casino or casino simulcasting facility.
7(a)(20): an airport. [PARTIAL - The Court clarified that Chapter 131 does not prohibit carry while dropping off or picking up passengers at curbside. The Court also ruled that while the PI is in effect, individuals may check a firearm as checked luggage while travelling pursuant to federal law so long as the individual stores the firearm as required by federal law before physically entering the airport and upon entry immediately proceeds to the required area to check the baggage containing the firearm. The individual cannot travel to any other section of the airport until the bag containing the firearm is checked. The Court did not rule on whether a person may carry inside any portion of the airport, and, other than the foregoing, the prohibition of carrying a firearm in an airport remains in effect. The Court did not issue an injunction as to transportation hubs and therefore that prohibition remains in effect.]
7(a)(21): a health care facility, but only as to a medical office or ambulatory care facility. The prohibitions remain in effect as to all other categories of health care facilities.
7(a)(23): a public location being used for making motion picture or television images for theatrical, commercial or educational purposes, during the time such location is being used for that purpose;
7(a)(24): private property, unless the owner has provided express consent or has posted a sign indicating that it is permissible to carry on the premises. However, the injunction only applies to property “held open to the public.” We interpret this ruling to mean that the Court did not issue an injunction for residential property or commercial property not held open to the public. Thus, we understand that the injunction applies to private property where the public may enter without seeking express permission, that is, where the public can walk in the door without asking.
7(b)(1): prohibition on carrying a loaded firearm in a vehicle.
N.J.A.C. 7:25-5.23(f)(5) [preexisting law]: prohibition on carrying a loaded firearm in a vehicle.
4(a) and (b): Liability insurance requirement.
Portion of N.J.S. 2C:58-4(c) authorizing the police to interview the persons endorsing the carry permit application.
B): The provisions of law for which the Court provided/acknowledged narrow interpretations or imposed narrowing rulings are as follows:
In the TRO, the Court had previously acknowledged the State’s concession that “school, college, university, or other educational institution” is to be read narrowly to apply to traditional schools such as are regulated by the State. Thus, the prohibition on carrying in schools does not apply to, for example, motorcycle classes, firearms training, Sunday school within a church, karate classes, and music lessons. In its PI decision, the Court maintained that same view.
Further, the Court had also acknowledged in the TRO the State’s concession that notwithstanding the very broad language used in the statute (“any part of the buildings, grounds, or parking area”) the scope of prohibition on multiuse property (strip malls, office buildings, churches with schools, etc.) is limited only to the actual prohibited use itself and not other uses and also does not include shared features such as shared parking lots, hallways, elevators, etc. Again, in its PI decision, the Court maintained that same view.
The portion of N.J.S. 2C:58-4(c) authorizing the police to require such other information as deemed reasonably necessary for the carry permit application is limited to objective evidence on the applicant’s dangerousness and risk to public safety.
Importantly, the State has already appealed these rulings, and even before the Court of Appeals decides the actual appeal it could potentially impose an immediate stay of Judge Bumb’s preliminary injunction while the appeal is pending. Therefore, it is very important to stay up to date with these proceedings to make sure you know if the injunction remains in effect.
The Judge has directed the parties to conduct discovery on several of the issues so she can conduct an evidentiary hearing on those issues. ANJRPC will continue to aggressively advance the case to its conclusion to ensure that when the lawsuit arrives at a final judgment it is as broad as possible in order to defeat as much of this unconstitutional law as we can.
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The state filed for a stay. Ask them.

You can't use any semblance of rationality when talking about them. They only exist to make each other feel good. They are not used to not getting their way so now they are petulant. They can't win but they are prolonging their own agony. The deeper it gets, the more fun it will be to watch.
The Judge has directed the parties to conduct discovery on several of the issues so she can conduct an evidentiary hearing on those issues. ANJRPC will continue to aggressively advance the case to its conclusion to ensure that when the lawsuit arrives at a final judgment it is as broad as possible in order to defeat as much of this unconstitutional law as we can.
This part quoted.

The part in orange. Is that Judge Bumb, or the appeals judge?
This part quoted.

The part in orange. Is that Judge Bumb, or the appeals judge?
That’s Bumb. She needs more info on some points. That’s what discovery is.
This part quoted.

The part in orange. Is that Judge Bumb, or the appeals judge?
When a lawsuit is started it goes through a long scheduled process. Any time after the lawsuit is filed in a case challenging the legality of the law can also ask that the law which is already in effect be put on hold while the lawsuit goes thru the normal process which can take years.

When a motion or application for a temporary restraining order is filed, it cannot win unless the party seeking to stop the law can show a couple of things. First, it must harm somebody. Pretty easy one there, it disarms a lot of people and takes away their right of defense, the one where the second amendment applies, the right to the tools of defense.

The second hurdle that must be addressed is whether or not the group seeking the temporary injunction is "likley to win". The beauty of a case like this is that the Bruen case is pretty simple. It says that you cannot burden the second amendment unless you can show your restrictions of burdens existed back at the time of the constitution. Simply stated, people could carry guns in their pocket or on their horse or buggy anywhere they wanted. So, today, going to the mall, or shopping, or to work or even to the local park, is no different than at the time of the constitution. People could and did carry guns on their person. So, it looks like the state will lose and the Plaintiff will win.

So, at this stage the lawsuit is still moving forward, nothing changes, except the state has had this law put on hold while the lawsuit goes thru it's various stages. At this point the trial judge decides she wants legal briefs on several of the key issues. This is common and a wise move by the judge. She makes them give all of their authority and rationale on both side. In my view, the case is basically decided in our favor, conditioned upon some tweaking. There may be a few places where she might agree with the state and let them do some restrictions.

Meanwhile, the losers/state does not like the temporary restraining order and want a second shot at that issue. So, they file an appeal just on whether or not all of part of the new laws are shut down for the duration of the lawsuit.

The beauty of this deal to me is that the trial judge has asked for legal briefs on certain issues. What that means is that the appeals court is asked to step in and shut down the entire restraining order right in the middle of the trial judge's attempt to get all of the information they really need to make and informed decision. That makes an appellate court look foolish to jump the gun when the key legal issues are being briefeas They will want that same information for the trial court. Why would they just jerk this aways from the trial judge before she gets this additional information?. If they do, then it will look and is purely political.

So, the trial judge basically told the state to put up or shut up. Bruen took away much of the autonomy of the local federal district judge. Most do not like to get reversed and look incompetent when the do so. So, everybody in the process wants to look good, or actually they do not want to look bad. The judge might be anti gun, but the rulings in cases like this are pretty simple, and every lawyer and judge they know will know immediately if there is some political stuff going on. Bruen actually shut the door on many such issues. An anti gun judge can rule that the new gun laws are unconstitutional and throw the law out, and she is totally justified by the Buen case. If she does not and gets reversed, then she has that order from the big court, that in lawyer terms, says she was incompetent. So, I am not worried about this one.

But, I am never surprised when there is some anti gun ruling by a court, it has happened for decades. However, I would be very surprised in this case if the appellate panel throws out the temporary restraining order.

I think we are good on this one. Hope so anyway.
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Agreed and well summarized Ranger4. I think that’s what several of us have been saying thruout this process. The State concocted a ridiculously restrictive carry law by design; so to undo it is complex and lengthy.
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Back when the state wrote the state constitution they didn't include any 2A in there because they thought that federal law covered and protected that. Judge Bumb wasn't going to make that mistake. In her airport ruling she specifically cited the federal laws she was appling.
Agreed and well summarized Ranger4. I think that’s what several of us have been saying thruout this process. The State concocted a ridiculously restrictive carry law by design; so to undo it is complex and lengthy.
This sounds to be about the long and the short of it.
NEWLY UPDATED CARRY CHART
SUMMARIZING 05/16/23 COURT RULING
ON SENSITIVE PLACES​

May 23, 2023. Due to popular demand, ANJRPC is pleased to provide the following updated chart summarizing the court's May 16, 2023 carry ruling on sensitive places.

Note: this ruling is currently being appealed by New Jersey, so this information could be superseded at any time and should not be used as a basis to make decisions about when and where the right to carry can be lawfully exercised. Consult with your own attorney before deciding when or where you may lawfully carry.​

ANALYSIS OF 05/16/23 CARRY DECISION ON SENSITIVE PLACES​
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ANJRPC said:
Note: this ruling is currently being appealed by New Jersey, so this information could be superseded at any time and should not be used as a basis to make decisions about when and where the right to carry can be lawfully exercised. Consult with your own attorney before deciding when or where you may lawfully carry.
What?

Here's the info, but don't use it or rely upon it unless you consult with your attorney 1st?

It's wildly out of control.
NEW JERSEY FILES APPEAL
TO END INJUNCTION
BLOCKING CARRY-KILLER LAW​

May 23, 2023. Late yesterday, the State of New Jersey filed appeal papers with the mid-level federal court seeking to quickly end the lower court's injunction blocking most of the carry-killer law. If the state is successful, the entire carry-killer law could be back in effect for the duration of ANJRPC's case. Were that to happen, the lower court could still suspend most of the law again at the end of ANJRPC's case, in which event the state would then have to appeal all over again.

The state's move was predictable as Governor Murphy and anti-gun lawmakers have been humiliated repeatedly by the lower court's rulings suspending most of the law since January. Lawmakers are desperate to save face and have a momentary victory on their "signature" unconstitutional legislation.

ANJRPC's responsive papers will be filed next week, and we will issue another alert then. In the meanwhile, see a copy of the state's papers by clicking here and scrolling to numbered items 26 and 27.​
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Isn't much of Bumb's ruling based on Bruen and Heller?
I know courts are as goofy as Biden being US president, but how could appeals even counter Bumb's decisions?
I think what we are seeing is, there's judicial professionals like Bumb, and then there's the corrupt courts & judges. Unfortunately for Pro2A, corrupt courts and judges seem to out-number the professionals.
It is a given that the state will appeal all the way to the end. They're going to lose but they will go out kicking and screaming. This isn't supposed to happen to them. They are the smart ones.
Murphy, Platkin and the dim witted law makers that came up with 4769 should be made to pay for these appeals Rather than the bottomless pit of taxpayer funds they use.
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Murphy, Platkin and the dim witted law makers that came up with 4769 should be made to pay for these appeals Rather than the bottomless pit of taxpayer funds they use.
Yeah, but even if they don't my portion is less than I already pay to gun rights orgs. Small price to pay. The antis will pay more for nothing.
We already new it from the latest ruling, but nice to see the Chart (per se) of restrictions BLOCKED by the court has grown vs the last issue of the chart - it is a great format to keep track of this. I print each version and carry it in my wallet next to my carry permit.
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