Buffers
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If I understand your question properly, the answer is that you don't need to have a smith to install a buffer. You can do it yourself as they are simply little donuts in the shape of your guide rod base that go over the guide rod and fit against the guide rod base. Then comes the spring.
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Yes, everything has its good points and bad points. I use them in my IPSC pistol but would not use them in my home/carry gun, it's just one more varible that could go wrong.
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No, you do not NEED a shok buffer, but it might be a good addition to your gun. No, John Browning did not use them, but that does not mean they aren't helpful. Heck, Browning didn't have a lot of things like FMJ ammo, hard chroming, full length guide rods, aluminum frames, polymer frames, etc.
The reason why people tend to think buffers will be problematic is that they don't work on some guns because of the gun's individual tolerances. Plus, some of the early buffers were not too good and tended to split, shred, or generally come apart after just a few rounds.
Some people swear by them, some hate them.
Whether or not you use a buffer, make sure you replace your recoil springs on a regular basis, most say around 2000 rounds for full-sized guns.
The reason why people tend to think buffers will be problematic is that they don't work on some guns because of the gun's individual tolerances. Plus, some of the early buffers were not too good and tended to split, shred, or generally come apart after just a few rounds.
Some people swear by them, some hate them.
Whether or not you use a buffer, make sure you replace your recoil springs on a regular basis, most say around 2000 rounds for full-sized guns.
The buffer makes up for some of the sins of a 1911 that is not properly manufactured or fitted together. I don't know of any 1911 from reputable company like Wilson, Les Baer, Kimber, etc. that comes with a buffer washer.
I used to use them when I didn't know better and gave up when I had one cause my pistol to lock up on the range.
They are one of those products that is harmless in practice, probably useless, but may make you feel good since your "slide isn't battering your frame". They could kill you on a carry pistol.
If you are going to shoot 500 or more rounds a month and you have a lower to mid priced factory 1911 then use the buffer and change it when it begins to flatten. If you use the same pistol for carry, at the end of every range session make it a routine practice to remove the buffer during cleaning.
It won't hurt if you forget to put it back for your next range session but could get you killed if you leave it in for concealed carry.
I used to use them when I didn't know better and gave up when I had one cause my pistol to lock up on the range.
They are one of those products that is harmless in practice, probably useless, but may make you feel good since your "slide isn't battering your frame". They could kill you on a carry pistol.
If you are going to shoot 500 or more rounds a month and you have a lower to mid priced factory 1911 then use the buffer and change it when it begins to flatten. If you use the same pistol for carry, at the end of every range session make it a routine practice to remove the buffer during cleaning.
It won't hurt if you forget to put it back for your next range session but could get you killed if you leave it in for concealed carry.
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Roshi,
I respectfully disagree with pretty much everything you said about buffers. They are not designed for any kind of manufacturing tolerance problem, and were never intended to be used as such. A buffer will not affect any tolerance in any gun, nor will it improve any improperly fitted or tuned component. It is simply a preventive maintenance device.
Buffers are very simple. If they work in your gun - use them. If they work consistently during practice, it is absolutely foolish to take them out during carry. Buffs are designed to wear slowly. They will not be fine one round, then disintegrate the next. They will wear or cut slowly, and provided you check them everytime you field strip, there should be NO problems. They do prevent the metal-to-metal battering, and this is and always was their only purpose.
If your gun does not run with them, don't use them - it's that simple. Please do not indicate that a small piece of composite material can get people killed. This is propaganda. It is akin to saying that because "brand X" ammo misfeeds in YOUR gun, that if anyone else uses it, it could get them killed. Nonsense.
ALL my guns run with buffers, and I trust them completely.
Use them if you want, take 'em out if you want - but don't make senseless claims about them please.
[This message has been edited by shane45-1911 (edited 08-09-2001).]
I respectfully disagree with pretty much everything you said about buffers. They are not designed for any kind of manufacturing tolerance problem, and were never intended to be used as such. A buffer will not affect any tolerance in any gun, nor will it improve any improperly fitted or tuned component. It is simply a preventive maintenance device.
Buffers are very simple. If they work in your gun - use them. If they work consistently during practice, it is absolutely foolish to take them out during carry. Buffs are designed to wear slowly. They will not be fine one round, then disintegrate the next. They will wear or cut slowly, and provided you check them everytime you field strip, there should be NO problems. They do prevent the metal-to-metal battering, and this is and always was their only purpose.
If your gun does not run with them, don't use them - it's that simple. Please do not indicate that a small piece of composite material can get people killed. This is propaganda. It is akin to saying that because "brand X" ammo misfeeds in YOUR gun, that if anyone else uses it, it could get them killed. Nonsense.
ALL my guns run with buffers, and I trust them completely.
Use them if you want, take 'em out if you want - but don't make senseless claims about them please.
[This message has been edited by shane45-1911 (edited 08-09-2001).]
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As do full-sized Wilsons
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Norm, DNS, right!
I knew there was another flaw in Roshi's post that I forgot to mention. Thanks guys.
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I knew there was another flaw in Roshi's post that I forgot to mention. Thanks guys.
My buffer experience goes back about 15 years, maybe they are better now.
I'm not making up stories. During a range session where I had already fired about six hundred rounds, my Wilson Shok Buff(black colored in those days) split and the next round failed to feed. When I dropped the mag, inserted a new one and tried to rack the slide, the slide jammed part way back.
Suppose I had stopped my range session a bit earlier and had then used my pistol for concealed carry. Don't you think that little piece of black plastic could have gotten me killed?
Would you all agree that after a range session but before concealed carry that you at least inspect the buffer?
My Les Baer Premier II purchased in 1998 came with out a buffer.
Maybe I'm too prejudiced by my experiences.
Enlighten me more. Did the instructions that came with your buffer equipped Baer and Wilson pistols tell you when to change them out?
I guess I'm learning that you can say anything you want around here without getting flamed except if it concerns buffers or full length guide rods.
I'm not making up stories. During a range session where I had already fired about six hundred rounds, my Wilson Shok Buff(black colored in those days) split and the next round failed to feed. When I dropped the mag, inserted a new one and tried to rack the slide, the slide jammed part way back.
Suppose I had stopped my range session a bit earlier and had then used my pistol for concealed carry. Don't you think that little piece of black plastic could have gotten me killed?
Would you all agree that after a range session but before concealed carry that you at least inspect the buffer?
My Les Baer Premier II purchased in 1998 came with out a buffer.
Maybe I'm too prejudiced by my experiences.
Enlighten me more. Did the instructions that came with your buffer equipped Baer and Wilson pistols tell you when to change them out?
I guess I'm learning that you can say anything you want around here without getting flamed except if it concerns buffers or full length guide rods.
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No one's pickin' on you Roshi! You are right, both are touchy subjects! I have stated publically that I will not respond to anymore FLGR threads - I'm close to making the same statement concerning buffers!
Regardless, yes - things have changed significantly since the "black" days. Wilson's are now blue, and they are a much better durometer (hardness) for reliability.
I agree with your statement about checking them after practice.
There is no magic number of rounds for replacement. This depends on the power factor of the load you use, and the weight of the recoil spring in your gun. They can last anywhere from 200 - 2000 rds. The key is to check them frequently.
Again, some guns simply do nut run well with buffs. No problem - don't use them. If your guns do like them, then there is no harm in using them for practice AND CCW/self-defense.
Roshi:
Not to pick on you anymore, but....
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I have a Wilson 1996A2 that came with a buffer. Wilson's recommends using a buffer in their full sized guns and also recommends replacing them every 1,000 rounds, or when they start to show a "cut."
I had some feed related problems on my 1996A2 and decided to take the buffer out to see if the additional fraction of an inch of slide travel would take care of the problem. Basically I wanted to see if my gun was one of those that just "didn't like" a buff. Well, I took it out and started to experience a NEW malfunction -- premature slide lock. Turns out that my slide stop was getting hit by FMJ rounds as they fed up to the top of the magazine.
I never had that problem with the buff because the timing of the slide cycling with the buff got the slide stop notch back in front of the slide stop before the round hit it (due to the fractionally shorter slide travel). Without the buff, the timing was right for premature slide lock to occur almost once every magazine.
I have since had the slide stop fitted by Wilson Combat and no longer have the premature slide lock problem. I have also decided to shoot it without a buffer for a while just to make sure everything is working well. I figure the base line for reliability should be without the buff. You never know when you're going to lose one for whatever reason during a match and not have spares. Or whatever else Murphy's Law throws at me.
If I get the gun through 1,000-2,000 round without a FTF, then I might start using one again. We'll see if I make it that far first.
Bottom line is a lot of people assume that taking a shok buff out will NOT effect reliability. Well, my 1996A2 and I are living proof that this is not the case.
Ultimately I'd like to get to the point where I don't care if my gun has a buff in it. I don't think that they will get torn up (never happened to me in 2,000 plus rounds), though they do wear faster when your recoil spring is getting weak (I replace this every 2,000 rounds).
I hate to say it, but of the two issues I think the FLGR one is more important (I'm an anti). What do you think, Shane, care to join me in a thread entitled "FLGR or Shok-Buff, if you only had to pick one issue and why"?
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EDITED to fix code.
[This message has been edited by JacRyan (edited 08-09-2001).]
Not to pick on you anymore, but....
If you do all of your shooting with a buffer and then take it out for carry, how will you ever know if your gun runs well without a shok-buff?
I have a Wilson 1996A2 that came with a buffer. Wilson's recommends using a buffer in their full sized guns and also recommends replacing them every 1,000 rounds, or when they start to show a "cut."
I had some feed related problems on my 1996A2 and decided to take the buffer out to see if the additional fraction of an inch of slide travel would take care of the problem. Basically I wanted to see if my gun was one of those that just "didn't like" a buff. Well, I took it out and started to experience a NEW malfunction -- premature slide lock. Turns out that my slide stop was getting hit by FMJ rounds as they fed up to the top of the magazine.
I never had that problem with the buff because the timing of the slide cycling with the buff got the slide stop notch back in front of the slide stop before the round hit it (due to the fractionally shorter slide travel). Without the buff, the timing was right for premature slide lock to occur almost once every magazine.
I have since had the slide stop fitted by Wilson Combat and no longer have the premature slide lock problem. I have also decided to shoot it without a buffer for a while just to make sure everything is working well. I figure the base line for reliability should be without the buff. You never know when you're going to lose one for whatever reason during a match and not have spares. Or whatever else Murphy's Law throws at me.
If I get the gun through 1,000-2,000 round without a FTF, then I might start using one again. We'll see if I make it that far first.
Bottom line is a lot of people assume that taking a shok buff out will NOT effect reliability. Well, my 1996A2 and I are living proof that this is not the case.
Ultimately I'd like to get to the point where I don't care if my gun has a buff in it. I don't think that they will get torn up (never happened to me in 2,000 plus rounds), though they do wear faster when your recoil spring is getting weak (I replace this every 2,000 rounds).
I hate to say it, but of the two issues I think the FLGR one is more important (I'm an anti). What do you think, Shane, care to join me in a thread entitled "FLGR or Shok-Buff, if you only had to pick one issue and why"?
EDITED to fix code.
[This message has been edited by JacRyan (edited 08-09-2001).]
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HHHHHHHENOUGH!!!!!!!!!!
SHEESH...how those two things can cause hours of time to be spent time after time always amazes me...
DoorDon't...
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I Like The Shade Too!
[This message has been edited by Havoc (edited 08-09-2001).]
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HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHENOUGH!!!!!!!!!!
SHEESH...how those two things can cause hours of time to be spent time after time always amazes me...
DoorDon't...
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>>>>>>>>>>g2<<<<<<<<<<
I Like The Shade Too!
[This message has been edited by Havoc (edited 08-09-2001).]
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I'd love to join you Jac, but then I'd have to ram a pencil into my eyeball. I think the REAL answer is to start banning people who mention "FLGR" or "buff" - or even think about mentioning them!Originally posted by JacRyan:
What do you think, Shane, care to join me in a thread entitled "FLGR or Shok-Buff, if you only had to pick one issue and why"?![]()
As you can see, our pal gyp_c has already smashed a pencil into his ocular cavity, and is wiggling it around as we speak!
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I think that would be an autolobotomy.
I am new to shock buffers, only having one in my CQB. With 7500 rounds through it and regular changing of the buffs, I have yet to have a problem. Buff should be changed around 1000 or as visual inspection dictates. While down at Thunder Ranch in July, I did a straight run of over six hundred rounds without cleaning on a used buffer that had about 1450 rounds on it when I cleaned the gun and the buffer didn't look any worse than the ones I change at 1000.
I don't really understand Roshi's need to preach that having a shok buff could get you killed, especially now that we find out his experience is 15 years in the past.
Guys, let me borrow that pencil when you are through with it.
I am new to shock buffers, only having one in my CQB. With 7500 rounds through it and regular changing of the buffs, I have yet to have a problem. Buff should be changed around 1000 or as visual inspection dictates. While down at Thunder Ranch in July, I did a straight run of over six hundred rounds without cleaning on a used buffer that had about 1450 rounds on it when I cleaned the gun and the buffer didn't look any worse than the ones I change at 1000.
I don't really understand Roshi's need to preach that having a shok buff could get you killed, especially now that we find out his experience is 15 years in the past.
Guys, let me borrow that pencil when you are through with it.
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I got a good laugh out of that too - thank you guys. Got me wondering which would hurt worse - a FLGR w/buff or a pencil?
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Don't start, David..........Originally posted by David Joyal:
Got me wondering which would hurt worse - a FLGR w/buff or a pencil?![]()
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