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Discussion Starter #1
I have a relatively humble imposition to bestow upon the individuals who could be considered the forefathers of the now moderately available 10mm auto chambered 1911 offerings if they are still around.

At the inception of the "Razorback project" a group of individuals (who can be stumbled upon by searches of the forum under the title in quotations and other variations) put up some hard earned and submitted ideas for what the Razorback would become.

I've done a fair amount of homework but am not about to pretend I was around back that far nor do I intend to tell the story as if I was. I've spent a fair share of my free time in the last year researching the history and if some of it rises to the top so be it but that isn't the subject of my thread.

What I would like to know is whether the Sub151's are largely stock, or how many have been tuned and possibly by who. What modifications were deemed necessary to the original product and finally how many still have them at all.

There are those that have already offered discussed "yellowtail" frustrations and bastard sight cuts:barf: as well as early teething problems of 10mm which still surface in new production guns.

There were some extensive range reports and others told very personal stories of what the intended usage of the Razorbacks were and I thank you for that. Stories that ranged from LEO duty carry to Family heirloom. What higher honors are there for any gun than than those two? Some were also devoted competition guns that get run hard and put away wet, often getting parts exchanged as needed and finishes that have a "lived in" feel to them and sometimes eventually become guns that are used as a basis for a full transformation like the Razorblack if you care to look that one up.

I'd like to refresh the DW forum with some more of the content on these limited edition pistols and apply some of your experiences to the decisions I now face as to what I do with the one I acquired. Ultimately I realize it is purely my choice to leave it as is or change things and future collector value is speculative at best. If, or more likely when I do anything to it I know exactly where it is going, right now the question that stays fresh in my mind is what will be done to it and why. I have no doubt the man I'll trust it to will have plenty of input and has been involved with them since the start but since the forum was involved in the inception of the Razorback, I wanted to see if anyone wanted to weigh in and offer opinions on how they think a sub151 Razorback should be regarded. Or whether modifications and improvements will affect value positively or negatively. Especially with regard to permanent alterations such as checkered frontstraps as some original owners have opted for traction tape instead. I figure any other parts which are exchanged either due to personal preference or higher quality which exists now and may have been previously unavailable or cost prohibitive at the time of production would only serve to increase value. If not collector value then certainly value of ownership and enjoyment for me and as long as all original components are retained value should be retained as well.

I am not a collector and in fact am more of an aspiring shooter with less than a dozen guns to my name including long guns. Half of the guns I have are clones devoted to Cowboy Action Shooting (C.A.S...Gunfighter:)) and modifications and collectible value is a nonissue so I could use some input on how modifications when properly done affect the long term value of a 1911 because it is something to be considered prior to any changes.

I apologize if this seems like a been there and done that topic. I don't see alot of posts here from some of the guys that were involved in the early stages but hope that some might still be around to coment. I know of probably 5 of the sub151's that have changed hands in the last year or two and know the condition of 3 of those quite well.

This isn't really intended as a thread about whether these guns should be a tool or a safe queen used solely for "gun porn" on the internet as every owner is different and individual ethics vary. I bought mine to shoot and will, I will probably also stay the course and proceed with my current plans as I respect and appreciate the input from the gunsmith I am working with, as much as I appreciate the history behind the gun provided by the previous owner and input from members of this forum.

What might you do if you had one of these and desired a few improvements? Or what have you done with the one you have?

My apologies to DHart and other really competent Gun Porn photographers for my meager attempt at capturing the subject...


 

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Discussion Starter #3

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cas,
not to burst your bubble but we all know what makes one man happy makes others sick.that is why the 1911 market is so diverse.

one of the hardest things i've had to do in the last year is order my new fusion,at first it seemed so simple but then you start thinking of your likes and dislikes.
so then you attempt to order the ultimate(in your opinion)1911.now mind you i have just sent off the check reciently and i'm still second guessing my decisions.
should i have gone with fiber optic sights or night sights????most members have an opinion but i personally like the night sights so i went with them.

now back on track if i was to shoot #113 and had any issues id send it to dave for his custom touch as we all know he can work magic with a 1911.i know you have been in contact with him so just send it in,he will let you know when you run out of cash.someday when i send him a 10mm i know a .40 barrel is at the top of my list.

bottom line is make yourself happy,send dave the gun get it back and shoot her up

pete
 

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Discussion Starter #6
if i was to shoot #113 and had any issues id send it to dave for his custom touch as we all know he can work magic with a 1911.i know you have been in contact with him so just send it in,he will let you know when you run out of cash.someday when i send him a 10mm i know a .40 barrel is at the top of my list.

bottom line is make yourself happy, send Dave the gun get it back and shoot her up

pete
First of all, Shhhhhh.

On Tuesday I will try to explain "subtle" and possibly move on to "omission" if you seem to be grasping "subtle" without a whole lot of difficulty.:(

Pete, you know I appreciate all your help at work and it is cool to have somebody I can talk guns with to without the other person thinking you are a militant. (Lotsa lefty-liberals in the Government)

However, while you know your advise is exactly what I want to and probably will do you are disqualified from participating on the grounds that you are a bad influence and almost completely responsible for me noticing the whole 10mm sub151 thing in the first place, there I was with my head in the clouds whn you had to show me what you were bidding on and then take me along to InRange to pick up #113. Prior to that I was only moderately remorseful that I hadn't gone for it and got the CBOB in 10mm. Now look at me, I'm a wreck. For shame. :bawling:


:biglaugh:
 

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Thanks for the compliments guys, but remember that there are several world-class 'smiths on this forum, any one of which could probably take care of CAS in their sleep! Perhaps it's best to read what the advice of the membership regarding CAS's original questions... :rock:
 

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cas i understand

--sorry to be a bad influance but look at it like this one day i went to work(15 years ago)and listened to some guys talking abouit a combat pistol league they shot in,i thought it sounded fun.mind you i dident even own a pistol,now look at me i check gb every 3 days or less for deals,scrounge pawnshops and surf forums.this forum is what made me buy my first dw-1911 a beat up rz that had been stored under the seat of a pickup.and today i now have a pointman aussi,rz 133 and 2 post cz rz's and most likely a bobtail by the end of 2008.guess you could say i have a disease.

that being said if i was to modify 113 it would be only things i could change back maybe with the exception of the front strap checkering.but to get the strap checkered i'm thinking would be costly as another smith told me that after checkering they beadblast the checkering then the frame flats need to be repolished.

guess i'll go get 113 out of the safe and clean her again maybe that will give me some more insite:biglaugh::biglaugh:

but i too am interisted in how many sub 150 guys are still around the only two i see regular posts from are iggy and elhombre(sp)??

so try to keep warm cas(it is -5 high here today)

ps i'll let you hold my new 44 if you requalify me:bawling::rofl:
pete
 

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Hey CAS,

It's great when you can start out with such a fine pistol and order up
you own finishing touches. Good luck with it, some day I hope to be
able to do the same with my own.

Like Pete said, customizing a gun is a very personal thing and you have
to go with what works for you.

Having said that, I would finish off the front strap, probably golf ball if
it were me. Then I would have the barrel cut flush with the bushing
and have a radius crown cut on the barrel. I would also cut flush the
slide stop with the frame and have it chamfered. I saw these features on
the Nighthawk T3 and really liked them. I felt it gave a 1911 a very finished,
precision engineered look.

I can't speak to the internals of the pistol, I'm simply not qualified but
I have a feeling the fellow you have in mind for this job knows just what
you need.

Whatever you decide I'm sure it will turn out great!

Good Luck:rock:

Chris
 

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#16 here.

Mine is absolutely stock. No tuning, no changes, no nothing. Still shoots great and I love my one suggestion of the serial numbering on the mags. Out of the whole project that is the only thing I can say I alone added.

It was sure fun to be part of it. Too bad they don't do it again!



ps: Someone commented that I had the best target for groups out of the bunch. I have looked at others and as best I can tell they are right. Kind of neat!
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Thank you for posting fellas

Good Show, I appreciate your comments and I like your ideas but I think I want to retain a good deal of the original appearance. I keep using the analogy of comparing the gun to a '66 Chevelle Supersport. It is okay as Icecold suggested to swap out a few things under the hood, heck you could even pull the stock engine and set it aside and run a replacement, just don't tear anything up in the process. It would however in my opinion be foolish to cut a collectible car up for the sake of tubbing it out and installing a roll cage. The analogy is a stretch but I hope it illustrates my point about retaining the ability to return to stock form with a limited edition gun.

But the checkering lust runs in my veins. Mwah-Ha--Hah:biglaugh:

#16 here.
Mine is absolutely stock. No tuning, no changes, no nothing. Still shoots great and I love my one suggestion of the serial numbering on the mags. Out of the whole project that is the only thing I can say I alone added.

It was sure fun to be part of it. Too bad they don't do it again!

ps: Someone commented that I had the best target for groups out of the bunch. I have looked at others and as best I can tell they are right.
It is a beauty Peter, and an adjustable front FCS version whereas Icecolds #113 and my #133 are twin smoothies with fixed sights. I'm just gonna tell myself that those Bomar style are why your proof target group is inside the small inside square if that is okay with you.

In my homework I did run across the thread in which someone suggested a proof target "contest" for bragging rights, from what I saw then #16 would take on all comers.:rock: Maybe someday we should try a thread like that and open it to all DW proof targets and see if anybody plays along?:)

I agree with you that it would be fun to do it again but I am afraid if you want to have that kind of feedback and creative input/interaction with a builder you will have to follow Bob Serva to Fusion or go to an expensive custom.

How about my questions Peter, should I follow your lead and leave it alone?
 

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#25
Put the orginal grips away.
Replaced the FLGR with a standard.
Replaced the FMSH with an arched model
Replaced the FPS with and oversize from EGW
Replaced the X/S sights with a Heinie rear and a Dave Servern custom FO front sight.
Added a bit of skate tape to the front strap.

It's been carried a bunch, both of us have been submerged in mud and manure and enough dust to choke a horse.

Barrel, bushing, and pin replaced due to a squib load. Got it back in 8 days and it shot to POA on the first shot.

Liked it so much I got Bob Serva to build it's little brother. #25-1
One thing that is kind of unique about #25-1 is the officer's sized grips that came with the gun including the "red eye" DW emblem. You can kind of pick them out in the first picture.



My guns are for usin'. You can see holster wear on the trigger guards of both guns.
When I'm done with them, my son and grandson will get what's left.:)
 

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Sorry to be gone so long. Last year was a lot of international work. Libya, North Sea, Qatar, Australia, Indonesia, Canada and Caspian if I remember right.

This year (08) I have already been to Australia (just got back!) after 7 weeks at sea give or take.

Hard to keep up on the net and say hi when you are gone so much. Also it is interesting to try and read 2 months worth of posts scanning for interesting topics.

Hey Iggy, I might be up Wyoming way this summer. Got a big job near Rock Springs so I will have to look you up. I promised I would do that after the Lysite work!

 

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Discussion Starter #16
Looks like a family reunion already!

Thanks Iggy!

Dave, if you could PM me and let me know who you sent #56 to I'd be interested in contacting them as those groups are moderately impressive.:rock:
:biglaugh::p :biglaugh:

Peter, I see Daves' proof target measurement listed. Care to break out the caliper or prefer to keep us in suspense?

I know I am out of the running. They were rested from 50 feet right guys?


 

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Peter,

Hey Iggy, I might be up Wyoming way this summer. Got a big job near Rock Springs so I will have to look you up. I promised I would do that after the Lysite work!

Yeh, my feelin's was so hurt I still ain't speakin' to you!!:biglaugh:

Give me a holler if you get close, I might even buy coffee.
 

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# 89 checking in

Hey guys,
My user name used to be ietrash before I changed e-mail and employer. The only things I've changed on #89 is: Ed Brown flat 30 lpi checkered mainspring housing, grips, and Ed Brown plunger tube. Glad to see a bunch of familiar "faces" around here.
 
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