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Hello Mr. James well I guess I did it again done got everyone fired up and caused you lots of work. I am really not and instigator and I don’t mean to start trouble wouldn’t blame if you kicked me off this site. Japsco113 AKA as John
A little spirited discussion here or there harms little. Don't sweat it, it's probably a good thing so long as folks can keep their cool and discuss calmly. I don't see too many hackles raised.
AHHH, So much to answer, ... so little time! 😁

First,... Nope, Fed laws trump State Laws,... been this way for a long time.

US Constitution 10th Amendment,...
"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

Second,... ahhh yes:),... that dear old cliche "for the common good"!

A phrase used, as far back as when Pres John Adams time in office, but, that was late 1800's and I doubt very much it was defined, as, when, dear ole' Hitler used it ,...
(Gemeinnutz geht vor Eigennutz)“ “The Nazi 25-point Programme,” Hitler's speech on party's program (February 24, 1920) in Munich, Germany.),.... or,... how his current descendants use it today!

I think it is by far the most definitionally twisted terminology ever contrived by the democrat/marxist insurrectionists!!! It's definition has changed with the whim of those controlling propaganda, as much as the length of skirts ( quote from the 60's, I believe😁) and by wanna-be people controllers seeking more power than they have been authorized to enact!

Basically, a term that doesn't hold water anymore, for me.

Third,... I believe every state in the Union have current laws on the books to RESTRICT the Rights of those Persons who are violent, not law abiding, mentally ill!

Sooo, trying to DENY an INALIENABLE RIGHT as a form of punishment, is not only redundant, but, in the true sense and definition of the word "Inalienable",.... not even humanly possible!

And last but not least, IMO,... "responsibilities" come with all aspects of living in a civilized society, but, is a dieing, if not dead concept, along with "respect", another dieing concept in most of today's world.

(disclaimer,...all the above, is just my simple opinion,... not to be confused with an order, demand, or, mandate, of any kind)😎
True enough, anything done for "the common good" more often than not seems to merely encroach on the rights of the individual to the detriment of all. My concern is less 'for the common good' and more 'for the welfare of the individual.' Specifically the individual that intends to carry for self defense. And to me it's less proficiency as I think the vast majority that intend to carry for self defense are going to practice within their capacity and get that sorted out as most people with a defensive mindset that aren't set on intentionally/willfully harming another will also be cautious and seek to avoid indiscriminately injuring others with errant rounds.

To me the larger concern is the legal aspect as stated previously. There's the surface level constitution which is simple enough, but then you dig deeper and one also has to think about state law as written, and further still case law/precedent as the law has been judicially interpreted/adjudicated in the past. I'm no lawyer, just a dingy mechanic, but I'm masochistic enough to actually enjoy reading and learning about various codes and statutes and trying to sort out how they would be applied. There probably aren't a lot of people that even take a surface level interest in the law outside of lawyers/police/prosecutors/judges. So I do view it as a good thing when that type of education is pushed. I wonder how many people errantly believe that Biden's advice to grab a shotgun and put some buckshot through your door is sage advice and not a scary proposition that will not fly in most circumstances/jurisdictions.
 

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please see map on post #20. i have had permits for 34 different states over many years. never taken any test. but, not being a convicted felon probably helps.
It is wise under ANY circumstances- in ANY state- to take a course that teaches you the LAW about carrying a gun- when you can shoot- when you CANNOT shoot. Your responsibilities if you do shoot- Your rights if you do shoot. KNOW THE LAW IN YOUR STATE.- remember the old adage- never lie to your doctor, your lawyer or your union steward.;-)
 

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Self-seeking, self-motivation to improve or maintain skills and/or learn the laws that apply to what one is doing usually works better than any government programs.

When observing the human outputs of most government programs, it's usually not especially impressive.
 

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Most interesting, in fact, I read this whole thread before posting this reply, something I rarely do!

First, I just have to comment on those that post, claiming rights are derived from our Constitution,... that is a patently false assertion! I have posted on this subject ad nauseam, so, I'll leave it to the violators to educate themselves, this time!

As to the subject at hand, once again it got the hair on the back of my neck standing up again, I refer to it as the "camel nose under the tent syndrome", or, as many have posted,... "the slippery slope"! Simply put, I am against any compromise initiated by, or, with, any democrat/marxists,... PERIOD!!! I have learned from past negotiations and will not repeat the insanity!

With that said,...I am adamant when it comes to firearm owners being either self-educated, or professionally educated, on safe firearm handling. But, I truly believe any sane person choosing to arm themselves, truly wants to be safe while do so.

My suggestion?

Bring back the public school "shooting clubs" and teach our youth proper handling at a young age. It was done when my wife was in her high school club, so I know it works. Also, there are tons of clubs, both public, private,... and state / national organizations,... specifically addressing gun safety,... some free, some with a fee! If publicized more, I believe they could become a common practice of learning for new gun owners, eliminating any politically based involvement.

Lastly,... as to qualifying, if required, after basic safe gun handling is accomplished,... I think ONE round, well placed in center mass, at 5 feet, is all that one should be expected to accomplish! That qualification would automatically take into consideration some citizens of less physical abilities than others, but still capable to exercise their RIGHT to preserving their LIFE! The previous mentioning of 30 to 60 foot target ranges falls into the category of speculating whether a shot is needed, or, not,... imo! Avoiding the confrontation entirely at those distances by acquiring cover, or escape, could be a more appropriate option, than being able to hit a target at those distances,... imo!

I think many will agree "SELF DEFENSE" is a prime objective for the Concealed Carry Citizen,... which I believe some would agree, occurs at closer distances than some that have been posted.

So, in a nutshell, I am for self regulation when it come to firearm handling and shooting qualification safety,......... period!

Great thread!!! Thanks OP!!!
I have an old 1940's Student Handbook for the school at which I teach. What today is our practice field was the shooting range back then.
 

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Self-seeking, self-motivation to improve or maintain skills and/or learn the laws that apply to what one is doing usually works better than any government programs.
The second amendment says the arms should be available so the militia can be/become well-regulated. It does not say the militia should prove itself to be well regulated before it can keep and bear (carry/use) arms.
 

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The second amendment says the arms should be available so the militia can be/become well-regulated. It does not say the militia should prove itself to be well regulated before it can keep and bear (carry/use) arms.
Very well and very succinctly stated!!!

The "well-regulated" adjective clause is historically interesting, and reflective of results (perhaps compromises?) of spirited debates involving George Washington and other Founding Fathers. But that's another subject for another thread.
 

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What you are describing, is life in an armed society,... now, think of the alternative!

There is no such thing as a guarantee of safety, in life, get over it!

Do you live in California, too? 😁
I've been following this thread for awhile, so I'll throw my 2 cents in. Gun safety comes down to commonsense. That said there seems to be a great lack of said commonsense in this country than there was 40 or 50 years ago. Commonsense can't be taught in a classroom, it is taught at home by parent and grandparents, we let that slip away. Basic weapons training in HS should be taught, but as an elective not a requirement. Some people will always detest firearms and that is their right. They should not be forced to learn weapon training. Someone noted that people do not want to be held accountable for their actions. Who cares what they want. We are a land of laws, we hold people accountable for their actions, if they want it or not. Thing are so ****ed up now that judges let murders and rapist out on bail, released prisoners early, impost light sentences. Who is to blame for that? We are. We allowed it to happen. We allowed for the systematic programming of our people starting with the education system in the 60's, TV, internet, chasing a buck, have to make more, spend more, buy more stuff. And this is what we have now United States Of America 2021. Economy in shamble, inflation, high gas price, lawlessness in north western citie, Police Officers quitting, defund the police, what idiot had his head up his ass when he thought of that one . Any short answer, we cause all this to happen and only we can fix it.
 

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Cjking11, well said!

But, the only part I can't go with you on, is ,... "Any short answer, we cause all this to happen and only we can fix it.",... if you had used the word ALLOW, instead of CAUSE, I wouldn't be writing this.

I believe,that, all that you correctly describe has been CAUSED by,... our own home grown power hungry on the Hill, George Soros, Putin, Xi Jinping and probably the majority of members in the G12,... as well as individuals falling under the label of "One World New Order Globalists"!

Also, to me, the most profound is the truth that,... " ONLY WE CAN FIX IT "!!!
Profound, because I believe few understand such, and, sadly, fewer are willing to act upon it when they finally do understand!

When more USA citizens realize that fact,... the closer we may get to the fix!!!

Thanks for posting!
 

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Cjking11, well said!

But, the only part I can't go with you on, is ,... "Any short answer, we cause all this to happen and only we can fix it.",... if you had used the word ALLOW, instead of CAUSE, I wouldn't be writing this.

I believe,that, all that you correctly describe has been CAUSED by,... our own home grown power hungry on the Hill, George Soros, Putin, Xi Jinping and probably the majority of members in the G12,... as well as individuals falling under the label of "One World New Order Globalists"!

Also, to me, the most profound is the truth that,... " ONLY WE CAN FIX IT "!!!
Profound, because I believe few understand such, and, sadly, fewer are willing to act upon it when they finally do understand!

When more USA citizens realize that fact,... the closer we may get to the fix!!!

Thanks for posting!
Should have read: "The short answer, we caused all of this to happen and only we can fix it" Sorry fat fingers.
 

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In Idaho, the range requirement for the enhanced concealed carry license is 98 rounds downrange, with no accountability on whether the student could even hit the target, let alone the berm. At the end of the class, we have a significant number of students who can put 20 out of 20 into an 8" circle at 3 yds (5 shots), 5 yards (10 shots), and 7 yards (5 shots).

I'm also a CRSO for a local, private gun club that has an indoor (50ft) range. After watching the bullet strikes not only above the bullet traps but into the ceiling, I argued for a qualification for the users of the indoor range. How's about 20 out of 20 into an 18" x 24" target at 15 yards? The number of gouges in the ceiling seems to have remained fairly fixed since instituting that policy about 2 years ago.
 

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I'm also a CRSO for a local, private gun club that has an indoor (50ft) range. After watching the bullet strikes not only above the bullet traps but into the ceiling, I argued for a qualification for the users of the indoor range. How's about 20 out of 20 into an 18" x 24" target at 15 yards? The number of gouges in the ceiling seems to have remained fairly fixed since instituting that policy about 2 years ago.
I would argue the same! I think private enterprises, wanting safe members is one avenue for teaching firearms safety, WITHOUT the use of government !

Kudos to you, and your private club, for activating such measures,... IMO!!!
 

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In Louisiana we had to fire 3 rounds from 3 yards, 3 rounds from 6 yards, and 3 rounds from 9 yards. When the instructor told us what we had to do at the range, I asked if he was joking. He said no, that is actually what the state requires. It may be a good thing though. One girl was getting her concealed carry license and she had literally never taken her new pistol out of the box. She asked the instructor at the range if he could show her how to load it. So at least that joke of a shooting test required her to shoot her gun.
 

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No licensing or testing standard has ever been devised to stop some cretin -- or criminal -- from sticking a gun in his waistband and going around in public.

Such licensing or testing is a lot of debate, legislation, effort/hassle, red tape, etc., when it only applies -- practically speaking -- to law abiding citizens with at least some intelligence.
 
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No licensing or testing standard has ever been devised to stop some cretin -- or criminal -- from sticking a gun in his waistband and going around in public.

Such licensing or testing is a lot of debate, legislation, effort/hassle, red tape, etc., when it only applies -- practically speaking -- to law abiding citizens with at least some intelligence.
Exactly, and, once again points out how licensing or testing has nothing to do with preventing crime, individual safety, or, public safety! That is just smoke and mirror, camel nose under the tent, tactics!

It's all about furthering their records of GUN PEOPLE!!!

For the day when ,... Registration = confiscation = subjugation
 

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We, the people, have ALL the rights. The government has only the authority to do what the constitution orders it to do, and not one iota more. Unfortunately rights do not bestow power. I would love to have a time machine, go back, and hunt down whichever do-gooding, quibbling, moron put in the "promote the general good" bit into the constitution, and flog him.
Hey Ron -- Do you forget to tell Biden, Pelosi & Schumer that? Ed in Florida
 
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