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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
This was just on the evening news and I have not found a text link on the internet yet for it, although I am sure one is forthcoming.

Apparently, two individuals have been on a small time crime spree to Waffle Houses and convenience stores in the areas south and west of Dallas. During one such robbery where the clerk had been robbed at gun point, forced to give up his wallet, and taken to the back room, another customer entered the store. That customer was named Compton and he holds a CHL and was carrying. The robbers were meandering in the store when Compton entered. He grabbed a paper and went to the counter to check out when one of the bad guys stuck a gun in his chest and demanded his wallet. This was all shown on the security camera video. Compton complied and was directed to the back room. Somewhere in getting out his wallet and going to the back room, Compton went for his gun, but when he started to draw it, the mag release got hit and unseated his mag. Fortunately, Compton realized that left him with one round and two armed bad guys and his attempt to draw his weapon went unnoticed and the bad guys left Compton and the clerk in the back of the store, alive. In the video, you can see Compton's actions, but I did not notice anything resembling going for a gun (maybe I missed it? and apparently so did the bad guys).

Even though Compton was unsuccessful in halting the robbery, this story has several lessons for people who carry concealed.

First and foremost is that bad things can happen to good people when they least expect it. This was apparently a morning robbery, not the usual time for these events.

Second, being able to carry a firearm legally simply gives you the option to use it should you need to use it and if the circumstances are favorable or necessary for you to use it.

Third, your choice of carry methods, choice of weapons, and skill level in their use can seriously affect whether or not you can deploy your gun effectively.

Last, proper working knowledge of your firearm may become critical if something goes wrong with it. In Compton's case, at least he realized that the mag (he referred to as a 'clip') had unseated and he subsequently based his decision on what to do given that he had only one round available to fire.

Compton was definitely fortunate in that no one (especially him) got hurt. Given that the odds were two to one in favor of the bad guys and given that they already had their guns drawn, Compton likely would have had a difficult time successfully drawing his soon-to-be malfunctioning gun (when round #2 would be expected) and successfully stop two bad guys with one shot. One thing Compton did not mention was whether the mag was simply unseated or if the entire mag had come out of the gun. If just unseated, he might have been able to reseat the mag as he drew the weapon. Of course there would be a lot of potential for trouble by having to do that as well and aim before the first shot so as not to have to re-rack the slide for subsequent shots. The reseating and aiming would have to be performed under the pressure of having two bad guys trying to prevent his successful gun deployment.
 

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He must have had a really weak magazine catch spring, an oversized magazine release, a really poor holster, or didn't have the magazine fully seated in the first place to have the magazine come unseated during the draw.

Is it possible for you to find out which?
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
As for right now, I don't have any way to verify why the mag was unseated. The story was not updated on the 10:00 PM news.

My other thoughts were that the mag release button spring might have been performing less that intended due to over use, manufactured with improper tension, or breakage.

One other aspect is that Compton might have done this inadvertantly in trying to draw the gun. Whether the problem was due to the gun, method of carry (not stated in the interview), or handling of the gun was not reported.

I will see if there is any updated information on the morning news tomorrow and see if I can track down an internet link to the story.
 

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Just speculation of course, but I would lay odds it was improper grip (the thumb) or a badly designed holster. In any case I don't think those extended "higher profile" mag release buttons are a very wise idea.

It does lend some credence to the european style heel-of-the-butt mag release though. Seven, eight, nine or whatever is better than "one". Although such pistols may have a slight (very slight) advantage in an IPSC match, I doubt whether they are a handicap in real gunfights, unless you are in the open after running dry - a subject discussed in another thread.
 

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Could be his brain shutdown because someone had stuck a gun in his chest! Brain farts are going to be the norm in a high intense situation. I am doing a shotgun class with Louis Awerbuck right now and the stuff I have seen done and done myself will give you pause. Shucking several good rounds out on the ground, mixing up slug and buck rounds, dropping ammo on the ground, and this is just training. When someone is actually threatening your life it is a wonder we ever do it right.

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"What most of these people need is a good slap upside the head. What I don't need is any more lawsuits." John "The Tooz" Matusak
 

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BillD beat me to my speculation that Compton may have just "jittered" the magazine out. I know I would be pretty shaky in such a situation. The BGs have their guns out. It's a situation where customers and store clerks often are killed to eliminate witnesses. The BGs will be really soggy and hard to light if they see you pulling your piece. Very, very tense situation, where someone could easily lose track of what all ten fingers are doing.

I guess the best lesson here is, be sure you can draw your gun successfully if that is what you decide to do. Don't plan on dealing with problems with the draw as they come up; make sure beforehand that your setup allows a quick, clean "presentation".

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If God didn't want us to own guns, why did He make the 1911?
 

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I hope I never have to draw mine, but I dread this very thing--making some kind of mistake if I ever found myself in a similar situation.

Luckily, this guy got away with mere embarrassment (well, I would have been a little embarrassed). This is a good lesson for us all. I think I'm going to practice more.
 

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I was hoping someone else would suggest this so I didn't have to, but if none of us knows this guy from Adam, and you can't see anything on the tape, isn't it possible he guy peed himself and made up a reason afterwards as to why he didn't "just use his gun?"

I feel for anyone in this sort of situation, regardless of the outcome, but I know more than one who'd say all sorts of reasons why the gun stayed put.

I don't care to accuse anyone of anything, but maybe we don't need to consider the mag realease a serious problem.

maybe.

youngun



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Wiht out knowing all of the facts it is really difficult to say exactly what went wrong, but my guess is operator error. I am sure we all know someone that carries a handgun daily and does nothing to train for the circumstance when they might actually have to use it.
 

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In my line of work I get to review many defensive shootings, sometimes just hours after they occur. So far, I haven't had the opportunity to come across a shooting where the citizen was (IMO) properly trained, even though many of the incidents had favorable outcomes despite the citizen's poor weapon handling skills. The best I saw recently was a former cop who foiled a robbery attempt at a convenience store a few months back. He used a two handed "isocolese" type stance, but his grip was kind of funky with interlocked fingers and the thumb of his support hand wrapped around the wrist of his firing hand. He kneeled down and fired two shots of .38 Spl., hitting the bad guy twice in the torso. Robber went down like a sack of potatoes throwing his own gun (loaded) to the side and begging for medical attention. Shooter then held him at gunpoint until a uniformed officer showed up. Video was in color and very good quality. I never got to talk to the shooter to see whether or not he remembered using his sights on either shot, or if he just pointed the gun and fired. In any case, it was evident that he had had at least some training at one point, but certainly not up to the level of anyone coming out of a modern day basic defensive handgun course. In many of the defensive shootings I see the citizen misses the bad guy entirely. I'd love to see what a Gunsite or TR grad who's well practiced could do in a similar situation.
 

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Originally posted by D.A.Mike:
In my line of work I get to review many defensive shootings, sometimes just hours after they occur. So far, I haven't had the opportunity to come across a shooting where the citizen was (IMO) properly trained, even though many of the incidents had favorable outcomes despite the citizen's poor weapon handling skills. The best I saw recently was a former cop who foiled a robbery attempt at a convenience store a few months back. He used a two handed "isocolese" type stance, but his grip was kind of funky with interlocked fingers and the thumb of his support hand wrapped around the wrist of his firing hand. He kneeled down and fired two shots of .38 Spl., hitting the bad guy twice in the torso. Robber went down like a sack of potatoes throwing his own gun (loaded) to the side and begging for medical attention. Shooter then held him at gunpoint until a uniformed officer showed up. Video was in color and very good quality. I never got to talk to the shooter to see whether or not he remembered using his sights on either shot, or if he just pointed the gun and fired. In any case, it was evident that he had had at least some training at one point, but certainly not up to the level of anyone coming out of a modern day basic defensive handgun course. In many of the defensive shootings I see the citizen misses the bad guy entirely. I'd love to see what a Gunsite or TR grad who's well practiced could do in a similar situation.
Without all the details I know it is hard to make judgements, but, from what I read here, was the former LEO right in shooting the bad guy? My understanding is that lethal force can only be used when you or a second party are in imminent danger of loss of life or great bodily harm. Not to merely stop a robbery. But perhaps the ex-cop believed a life was in danger and shooting was his only option? We carry concealed to save lives, either our own or anothers, not to be amatuer police officers. Right?
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
I am not sure we can't consider the mag a serious issue. We only have one witness to that event and that was the guy with the gun. Maybe he did fabricate the story since it does not seem to show him trying to draw his gun. Of course he might have and us not see it is just a product of poor video tape or his body shielding the video tape from recording the behavior.

As far as when you can and cannot use lethal force, each states have their own rules and regulations.

Sorry, I have yet to find an internet link for the incident
 

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Originally posted by Soujurn:
Without all the details I know it is hard to make judgements, but, from what I read here, was the former LEO right in shooting the bad guy? My understanding is that lethal force can only be used when you or a second party are in imminent danger of loss of life or great bodily harm. Not to merely stop a robbery. But perhaps the ex-cop believed a life was in danger and shooting was his only option? We carry concealed to save lives, either our own or anothers, not to be amatuer police officers. Right?
I would say if you are in a store and some goober points a gun at someone (you, the clerk, another customer) than that person's life IS in danger. He pointed a gun, what do you to do be in danger, wait until he starts shooting?

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"What most of these people need is a good slap upside the head. What I don't need is any more lawsuits." John "The Tooz" Matusak

[This message has been edited by BillD (edited 08-24-2001).]
 

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Pointing a firearm at another person constitutes deadly force. The robber had the ability and opportunity to cause grave bodily harm or death to the innocent, and the innocent were clearly in jeopardy. So, he was bought and paid for in the any state in the union.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Depending on where you may live and the local laws, you may not be able to use lethal force to protect property, but property isn't the issue most times. I just love to hear people argue points like the first Texas CHL license holder shooing that was billed as a man getting killed over two vehicles swapping paint on the highway and the incident turning into road rage. That may be what started the incident, but not why the bad guy got killed. The bad guy got killed because he was beating the crap out of a little guy (head/face punches that result in permanent partial loss of vision in left eye) who grabbed his gun and defended himself. Once his life was in jeopardy, the parameters of the situation changed. Same for many muggings. A guys says gimme your wallet, but shows no weapon or makes no threatening moves and it is doubtful shooting the guy will be justified. If he threatens you with a weapon, the issue is no longer robbery but whether or not you survive a lethal confrontation.

Apparently what a lot of you would consider deadly force is apparently not what deadly force is as argued by the attorneys for Rivas of the Texas 7 who shot officer Hawkins. This has also been on the news quite a bit here in North Texas. According to the attorneys, Rivas never intended to kill anyone and so he should not get the death penalty. I am not sure how that logic works given that Hawkins was shot 6 times in the head and several other times in other places, then run over with his squad car, but the body did not clear the second set of wheels and he was dragged several feet - but they did not mean to kill him.
 

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Maybe he just "chickened out", and used the slipped mag story as an excuse. Notice the camera didn't show him trying to pull it?
just a thought, It's one thing to carry a gun, quite another to be willing and able to use it when called upon.
 

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Sojurn,
What the others said is correct. This was a robbery, not merely a theft of property or a burglary. In my jurisdiction, robbery can mean taking (or threatening to take) the property of another by means of force. In this case, it was deadly force (a pistol). Unlawful deadly force may be countered with deadly force. Within the small confines of a convenience store, just because the robber isn't pointing the gun directly at you this second doesn't mean he isn't a threat to you and that your life isn't also in danger. If the life of a second party is in danger, you might also be justified in using deadly force (some argue that you have a moral obligation to do such, but I don't believe there is a legal requirement for a citizen to defend the life of another).
This robber did not die from his wounds, but instead recovered in the hospital and is awaiting trial for first degree robbery.
 
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