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Discussion Starter #1
The recent petition of John Hinkley for unsupervised visitation rights brings to mind the weapon he used to drop 2 men with one shot each when he attacked President Reagen. He used a 6 shot revolver loaded with 22 LR. I news reel shot we see all the time in Virginia is where he shot a young secret service agent in the abdomen - he dropped like a rock...no struggle..no stagger...and didn't get up. Fortunately he lived. Mr. Brady was shot in the head (note the round didn't bounce off) and dropped unfortunately crippled for life. True is was up close but then that's where it usually happens. I suggest that larger calibers aren't the only effective weapons for self defense.

Also.....the most commonly used caliber to kill people in the US is the 22 LR.

I know all you macho guys with your .45s wont like this but it's food for thought.
 

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Think all you want. If you study this subject long enough you will understand that all handgun calibers work (stop) sometimes, just as all handgun claibers don't work (fail to stop) sometimes.

Most of us choose a cartidge/weapon with the idea of putting the odds a little more in our favor.

Oh and by the way, the implication that I carry a 45 ACP for "macho" reasons is offensive. Carry what ever you want and allow me to do the same without the insults.
 

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I second Dave T's comments. If you want to rely on the .22LR for self defense, go right ahead. However, allow others the same freedom of choice.
 

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Had that been a .45 ACP, we likely would have lost one Secret Service Agent, one relatively new President, and Mr. Brady would not have been crippled- his head would have been blown apart. We can always argue possibilities about the past, but the fact is, the past is the past. As has been said, sometimes a little bullet will take down a big creature. Sometimes a big bullet won't disable a small one. That is just how life works- unpredictable.
 

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technosavant said:
Had that been a .45 ACP, we likely would have lost one Secret Service Agent, one relatively new President, and Mr. Brady would not have been crippled- his head would have been blown apart. We can always argue possibilities about the past, but the fact is, the past is the past. As has been said, sometimes a little bullet will take down a big creature. Sometimes a big bullet won't disable a small one. That is just how life works- unpredictable.
I agree. Reagan was shot in the chest and had to go to the hospital. For all we know had he been shot with a real caliber instead of a .22 LR (say 9mm and up) he would have been DRT rather than driven to the hospital for surgery.
 

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"Also.....the most commonly used caliber to kill people in the US is the 22 LR."

Yes, this has been true for every year reported over the past several decades in the FBI Uniform Crime Statistics. More criminals apparently have access to a gun in .22LR than any other.
After all, it IS cheap.

If you shoot lots of folks with a .22LR and fewer folks with a 9mm, .45ACP or what have you, most of those who succumb will turn out to have been shot with the .22LR, since ANY penetrating bullet wound can obviously prove fatal, given a strategically placed hit and enough time.
That doesn't make the .22LR a better round for self defense.
It merely means that the .22LR is much more commonly used to shoot people than other rounds (obviously).
 

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I must admit that a 22 can be lethal. I have killed
much game with one. However, I will keep on
carrying my 1911 45ACP for self defence as the
BG might be shooting back. To each his own.
 

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Reagan was shot in the chest and had to go to the hospital. For all we know had he been shot with a real caliber instead of a .22 LR (say 9mm and up) he would have been DRT rather than driven to the hospital for surgery.
Don't I remember that RR was actually hit by a bullet that glanced/bounced off the car? So if the bad guy had used a larger caliber, RR might not have been hit at all.

Gregg
 

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Discussion Starter #10
We all know there is no substitute for a well placed shot....Don't we?

Unfortunately the gun manufacturing industry has been able to convince many people that bigger is better. That's just what I see on the range and I know there's many out there that are the exception. Those who say that a .45 would have been more effective than the 22LR used on Ronald Regan are making the mistake of assuming that the shooter would have been as accurate. I doubt that very much. Based on what I've seen at the range most inexperienced shooters like John Hinkley couldn't hit much with a .45.

Yes i used the word macho to characterize the 'men' attempting to fire their oversized hand cannons at our range. If it offends some I appologize - however I've seen many at the range who appear to be shooting a .45 who can't handle the recoil...and I can't think of any reason why they persist in blasting away at the ceiling accept that it makes them feel macho.

I'd be curious to know how many people in an urban area (that are not in law enforcement) carry a .45 caliber weapon every day for self defense. For all it's theoretical appeal it's not practical.
 

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I respectfully disagree. The US military used the .45acp for decades, finding it far preferable to its .38 predecessor. Moreover, many Spec Ops folks in the US military are using the .45acp in preference over the 9mm, which is much more powerful than the .22LR. The 9mm has generally given way to the .40S&W in Law Enforcement circles because the latter is a superior stopper. The .45acp is not difficult to learn to shoot well and it's recoil is not difficult to control. Many small statured women handle the .45acp very well. I submit that the fellows you see at the ranges who are unable to handle the .45acp simply don't have appropriate training. Lack of training is not a very good reason for choosing a much weaker round. Learn to shoot well and you won't need or want a 22LR. The .22LR is simply one of the least desirable rounds for self defense. But hey, what do the people at this Forum know about it anyway, right?
 

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Whitefang,

I see you are very new to this forum so allow me to offer some advice. We welcome just about everyone but generally, those who start out by questioning the intelligence, skill and ability of other members don't last long. You might want to tone it down a notch. As for your comment on .22's, you are correct that they are lethal but what you either didn't say or don't know is that they are generally not lethal very quickly unless shot placement is perfect. For self-defense, a larger caliber is generally better at stopping someone quicker. In the end, it's pretty irrelevant as all pistol rounds are pathetic anyway. FWIW, I carry a .45 every day and other than recoil management, there is no difference in handling a .45 versus a .22. Sight alignment, trigger control and follow through are identical fundamentals, regardless of caliber. The only difference would be in time between shots which in the hands of a skilled shooter will be measured in hundredths of a second.
 

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"and I can't think of any reason why they persist in blasting away at the ceiling accept that it makes them feel macho."

They could actually be trying to learn to shoot. I'm sure the first time I fired a .45 I would not have looked like a "man" but I don't go to the range to try to impress others there. Now I shoot the .45 about as well as my 9's and 22's.
 

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Also.....the most commonly used caliber to kill people in the US is the 22 LR. I know all you macho guys with your .45s wont like this but it's food for thought.
You've already convinced yourself, why ask my opinion? More people are killed each year with hammers and baseball bats than with .22's.

Have you considered arming yourself with a hammer?
 

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I was first introduced to the 1911 in .45ACP when I
enlisted in the Marines in 1942. After being discharged
in Dec. of 1945 I have carried one most of my life.
Yes, even before it was legal. Now I'm legal and have
been ever since my state passed the CCW law. I
still carry daily even at my age of 82 years and when
I come in at night it resides on the lamp table by my
recliner. When I go to bed it will be on the table by my
head. There is seldom a time that I am out of reach of
my pistol. I own several and therefore may switch from
one to the other but never without one.

To quote Elmer Keith, "Big bullets let in a lot of air and
let out a lot of blood."
 

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tulsamal said:
Don't I remember that RR was actually hit by a bullet that glanced/bounced off the car? So if the bad guy had used a larger caliber, RR might not have been hit at all.
I dont believe so. He was hit in the chest under the left arm and it penetrated deeply enough that it required surgery for repairing his collapsed lung.

I know a couple different people who have been hit by ricocheting .22s (one off a car body and one off a bathtub) and they suffered burns only. There wasnt enough oomph once it richoceted for it to penetrate their skin.
 

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Oh boy...

... White you are really stirring a hornets nest.

I'd be curious to know how many people in an urban area (that are not in law enforcement) carry a .45 caliber weapon every day for self defense. For all it's theoretical appeal it's not practical.
You can't throw a hand grenade into a room, and not expect it to go boom.

But to be fair, please explain why you think a .45ACP is not practical.

I'm not trying to pick on you. I just want to make you think about what you said. Think of it as applying logic.
 

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At one time many years ago the .22 was involved in most killings...times have changed and so has that stat. They are not anymore. The most likely culprit is the 9mm and head shots at close range seem to be the norm.
 

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Whitefang2016 said:
We all know there is no substitute for a well placed shot....Don't we?
It sounds like you don't believe, from what you've seen, that people who carry .45's can hit what they're aiming at. There are alot of people here, myself included, who can definitely place a .45 round where we want to. I don't think that .45's recoil that much at all, and even my aluminum frame CDP isn't bad at all. I've seen people at the range who can barely hit paper at 7 yards, but never seen someone shoot into the ceiling from recoil.

I just don't believe that if an enraged crack-head comes at me that a .22 round will stop him. I do believe a .45 will, and if it doesn't there's more rounds and an extra mag to do the job. :)
 

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Mus said:
I agree. Reagan was shot in the chest and had to go to the hospital. For all we know had he been shot with a real caliber instead of a .22 LR (say 9mm and up) he would have been DRT rather than driven to the hospital for surgery.

NO

Regan did not get shot directally. Hinkley started shooting, and the secret service agent starting pushing Regan into the lemo, Regan caught a ricochet from the round bouncing off of the lemo. it was not a direct hit. The book where I got this info from was "Protecting The Presednet" by a author named McCarthy. He served in the secret service during the Regan Administration and he was present during the assassiation atempt.

The agent pushed Regan into the path of the ricochet, accidentally of course.
 
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