1911Forum banner

1 - 20 of 41 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
121 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Being new to 1911s, (recently purchased a Charles Daly ECS), and used to carrying a DAO type of pistol, I'm curious to know the general feeling regarding Cocked and Locked, vs "Israeli Carry".....i.e., carrying without a round chambered. So far, I'm very uncomfortable carrying cocked and locked, since I haven't had any experience to speak of regarding the grip safety and the hammer safety. Any thoughts? Thanks.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
853 Posts
The only way that you will gain experience is to do it. Simply understand that the weapon was originally designed to be carried cocked and locked by its designer. You may find this comforting. John Browning originally designed the 1911 without a grip safety. The Army insisted that this additional safety be added before accepting the gun. If you look at the Browning High Power, a later Browning design, you will note that Mr. Browning disposed of this feature.

I have carried a 1911 in the cocked and locked condition for over 25 years and I have never experienced any problems what-so-ever.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
131 Posts
Notwithstanding the high level of skill demonstrated by specially trained Israeli forces in deploying the 1911 from condition III, one of its true great advantages as a defensive weapon is its c&l design. There is in my opinion(and many others vastly more experienced) no sidearm which can be more quickly and safely brought into action than a c&l 1911 in the hands of a PROPERLY TRAINED (and practiced) user.

There have been more than a few threads on c&l carry on the Forum - check the SEARCH feature - you'll find some great advice!

Best regards,

Roger D
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
3,113 Posts
Condition 3 (chamber empty) facilitates the inspection of the sidearms of mounted troops (they can lock the slide open and present the weapon for inspection without having to dismount and find their chamber round afterward). Beyond that, I'm not sure what good condition 3 is.

It requires both hands to make the piece ready, it shortchanges the user one round, it makes noise, and it cultivates a cavalier attitude toward safety because "the chamber is empty". Condition 3 can be a viable "ready-storage" condition under some circumstances, but it is not a satisfactory carry condition.

Rosco
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,941 Posts
That is fine if it is your secondary weapon. In the military, they have a battle rifle for a primary weapon. Our troops carried condition 3 too. When clearing holes, it went to condition one before they droped into a hole. Condition one is manditory if it will be used as a primary weapon. My opinion only!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
538 Posts
If you do not feel comfortable carrying C&L, don't. In fact, carry a gun you feel safe with until you have several thousand presentations with the 1911 style gun, doing C&L dry fire.

Regardless of what the Israelis do, so called condition three is used for long term storage only by me. GLV
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
548 Posts
Originally posted by Rosco Benson:
Beyond that, I'm not sure what good condition 3 is...
It is also an unsatisfactory shooting condition. The Israelis acknowledge that the first shot will usually go off target because of muzzle whip as the piece is triggered. Their concept was developed to allow a universal manual of arms for a large group of people receiving limited training which had to be applicable to a broad array of handguns. Useful in their context but not in ours.

As an aside, contrary to popular belief, the 1911 was not designed to be carried cocked and locked, but rather with a round chambered and hammer down. The reason a spur hammer was specified vis-a-vis the burr (commander) style of the earlier model of 1905 was to allow cocking the pistol against the pants leg of a cavalry trooper without compromising the firing grip while at a gallop. Note also the absence of a thumb safety on the models of 1905 and 1907. The thumb safety was added as the equivalent of a "decocker" for use while a trooper was still moving mounted after engaging the enemy.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
429 Posts
Statistics show that must of the time if you have to draw your gun for self defense it will be at close range. Good luck trying to chamber a round will Joe Badguy is swining away with a a knife, bat, or whatever. If your gonna carry for defense then be ready to shoot now not when your ready because Joe won't give you time to prep, get a nice stance, and chamber a round. Just my humble opinion.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
861 Posts
10EC, I was a little uncomfortable the first few times while carrying mine C & L. Remember, you have two safeties, thumb and grip, and on the newer model Colts, there is a third safety, the firing pin safety. You might want to consider participating in something like an NRA Action Pistol Shoot to become familiar with bringing the 1911 to bear in a disciplined fashion.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
417 Posts
IMO, C&L is best when your 1911 is your primary weapon. If, however, it is not, you might consider condition III, depending on the environment. If you're in "dirty" surroundings (dirt, mud, etc), and your pistol is your secondary weapon, hammer-down/chamber-empty might be best for no other reason than a cocked hammer offers just one more opening for grit to get into the works.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
604 Posts
My copy of the US Army operating manual for the M1911 (dated Feb. 14, 1914)recommends against carrying C&L "except in an emergency." Sure the Army might have a couple of minutes warning before the Bad Guys are over the wire but the typical police officer or other civilian might not have that time frame. Hence, the C&L carry.

Chuck Taylor, a noted professional full time firearms instructor (who some like and some dispise), says that he can train a person to safely carry a M1911 C&L in 10 minutes.

My suggestion - go get some professional training on the M1911.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
236 Posts
I carry C&L and use for home defense in
Condition 3. Carry the gun C&L with no
round in the chamber for a couple of weeks and do various activities that you think
might cause a problem. After that period
of practical experience wihout the saftey
being knocked off or the hammer dropping,
you can start to carry with a round in the chamber. (Or you can do what I did. Put in
a 32 lb. recoil spring and load 45 Super.
You have to carry C&L since you won't have
a prayer of quickly and reliably racking
the slide against that spring :> ).

[This message has been edited by SELFDEFENSE (edited 04-29-2001).]
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
550 Posts
The U.S. Army, for whatever reasons, taught condition three carry and presentation for forty years before there was an Israel. One wonders where such terms as "Israeli carry" come from.

The Army full flap holster did not readily lend itself to condition one carry. The Army did teach a presentation from holstered condition three which could be fairly quick with practice.

However, every major school of which I am aware teaches condition one carry and presentation. Given some basic training, it is the only way to carry the 1911.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
101 Posts
Originally posted by 10EC:
So far, I'm very uncomfortable carrying cocked and locked, since I haven't had any experience to speak of regarding the grip safety and the hammer safety. Any thoughts? Thanks.
Try get some practice carrying a 1911 cocked&locked just to build up confidence in the design; load it up with blanks in a low risk area (ie round the home, NOT on duty if you have to carry for that!!
) if you're worried that you're gonna manage to disengage the thumb safety, depress the grip safety and pull the trigger at the same time, all while holstered! Good luck getting that AD, I think you'll find it won't happen.



------------------
"England, twinned with our great friends the PRK."
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,457 Posts
Although I feel comfortable C&L, you should only do what you feel at ease with. One thing I would do is to utilize the same method all the time. Under stress, you will default to what you are trained to do and there is no reason to complicate the manual of arms. Might be kinda ugly to deploy a condition 3 setup when you think it's in condition 1.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
737 Posts
I only carry pistols with a loaded chamber. The 1911 was designed for the cocked and locked carry method, even if it sometimes scares people who are not knowledgable about this type of pistol. If you mix up pistol types then the so called "Israeli method" might have some merit. Otherwise, just get used to it. A cocked and locked single action is one of the greatest first shot advantages you can have.

------------------
Get your 1911s and AR15s while you still can!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
591 Posts
10EC:

If you haven't already, get some good training.

Then practice dry (no ammo): draw, lower safety, pull trigger. Manually cock the hammer, apply safety, reholster. Repeat. A lot. You should not lower the safety until the gun is out of the holster and the muzzle is at a 45 degree angle with the ground.

Also, carry it around the house for a week with the chamber empty, cocked and locked. At the end of the week I think you'll find that the safety hasn't wiped off and the hammer hasn't dropped.

Regarding carrying condition 3 (chamber empty) rather than condition 1, realize that cond. 3 has several disadvantages. Yes, with training you can become proficient at quickly chambering a round, PROVIDED that you have both hands available to do so. The problem is that you might not have both hands available. Your support hand might be busy fending off the bad guy, or pushing your spouse to cover, or scooping up a child, or opening a door, holding a flashlight, etc. There are techniques for racking a slide with one hand, but they are awkward, slow, and not very safe.

A M1911 is not going to go off by itself unless several failures occur at the same time.

If, after following our suggestions, you are still uncomfortable carrying cond. 1, you might want to consider carrying a different pistol. There are plenty of excellent DAO and DA/SA pistols, if that's what you prefer.

M1911
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,518 Posts
Originally posted by Patrickl:
<snippage> The Army insisted that this additional safety be added before accepting the gun. If you look at the Browning High Power, a later Browning design, you will note that Mr. Browning disposed of this feature.

I have carried a 1911 in the cocked and locked condition for over 25 years and I have never experienced any problems what-so-ever.
Though I have not seen the original documentation, several noted authorities (Gen. Julian S. Hatcher, Jeff Cooper, Charles Askins) have at times noted that the grip safety was added in order to satisfy the calvary wish that the pistol could be put into action "without manipulaion". IOW it was to be carried in condition 0; a round in the chamber the thumb safety OFF . Whether or not the pistol was ever carried this way after it was actually adopted I have no idea but that was the origin of the grip safety, at least according to these venerable commentators.

For a fact the British SAS carried the P-35 in condition 0 for years. I don't know what they do now.

This does not mean I am suggesting it, just a little trivia. Cond. 1 is good enough for me and a DAO auto in untrained hands seems just as prone to accidents.

Cond. 3 sort of presumes that you will always have 2 hands free to bring the gun into action... sort of chancy at best.

Food for thought,
Jim Higginbotham
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
853 Posts
Originally posted by JimH:
Though I have not seen the original documentation, several noted authorities (Gen. Julian S. Hatcher, Jeff Cooper, Charles Askins) have at times noted that the grip safety was added in order to satisfy the calvary wish that the pistol could be put into action "without manipulaion". IOW it was to be carried in condition 0; a round in the chamber the thumb safety OFF . Whether or not the pistol was ever carried this way after it was actually adopted I have no idea but that was the origin of the grip safety, at least according to these venerable commentators.


Like you I can't confirm this, but it does sound plausible.

For a fact the British SAS carried the P-35 in condition 0 for years. I don't know what they do now.


I have a friend who works on a Sheriff's department in the next county over from mine. He is a Naturalized Citizen from Great Britan. He was with the SBS, or at least claims to have been. I thought he was giving me a line about being in the SBS, especially when he saw I was wearing a 1911 in C-1, and told me the safety should be off!!! I told him he was out of his mind but he swears that the SBS taught him to carry the HP with a round in the chamber and the safety OFF. Now you say that the SAS did this too. GAD, maybe my friend REALLY was in the SBS.

a DAO auto in untrained hands seems just as prone to accidents.
No doubt about it. Even in trained hands we have had a bunch of Hotel-Uniform-Alpha discharges.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
3,113 Posts
Anyone who will carry a Glock shouldn't get too excited about the prospect of a 1911 or P-35 in condition zero. That said, there's no reason NOT to use the thumb safety. If one thinks it is fumble-prone or slows them down, then they simply need more practice.

As to the SAS, SBS, the Spice Girls, or whoever carrying their P-35's in condition zero, one should consider a couple things....

1. The older P-35 thumb safeties were undersized and HORRID. The current "banana-shaped" levers are much easier to use.

2. Since when did the British become exemplars of small arms doctrine? They've learned a bit about urban/CT ops in Northern Ireland, but let's not make more of this than it's worth.

Rosco
 
1 - 20 of 41 Posts
Top