Cocked & Locked Carry

2940 Views 32 Replies 26 Participants Last post by tex_n_cal, Dec 20, 2001

gjbever

Discussion Starter · Sep 27, 2001

A local gunsmith recently advised me he refuses to sell new 1911s unless they have the Series 80 type plunger firing pin block safety device. I have 2 Les Baer 1911s which I have used for CCW carry in the cocked & locked mode. He claims this is unsafe without series 80 style firing pin blocker and that the original design without said series 80 feature was never designed to be carried safely in cocked and locked mode! I've just gotten very comfortable the last couple years with the 1911 design for carry as I have been shooting several versions extensively in IPSC and IDPA! Am I on safe ground here or hanging my ass out for a liability nightmare at some point?

1 - 20 of 33 Posts

Mikey

· #2 · Sep 27, 2001

And he calls himself a gunsmith? Don't let him work on any 1911's!

The passive firing pin block is there to prevent firing if the gun is doropped muzzle first onto a hard surface which could cause the firing pin to move forward under it's own inertia. Some people think it will prevent firing if the hammer accidently falls (which is physically impossible if the thumb safety is engaged and properly working). The only other way I know to make one fire is to pull the trigger which causes either series to go bang.

Mikey

Double Naught Spy

· #3 · Sep 27, 2001

Your liability is in carrying a gun, not in the extra firing pin block. This is the same liability we all have for carrying. I would contend that such a liability is offset by the potential benefit of saving your life.

Your gunsmith sounds like a nut. Sorry. What an amazing thing to say. Then again, he have have been involved in some sort of legal case where he worked on a gun that ended up having a problem, hence his uneasiness.

Powderman

· #4 · Sep 27, 2001

I smell a gun plumber.

I have personally carried a Series 70-type .45 for years. Absolutely no problems, and I always carries cocked and locked. (Still do, too).

------------------
"Be not afraid of any man, no matter what his size;

When trouble rises, call on me and I will equalize."

gm45

· #5 · Sep 27, 2001

Mikey nailed it. Basically, I wouldn't let him touch a 1911, since he doesn't seem to understand the basics of it.

Oh, Kimber and Baer TRS for me...no problem. Also used to carry Para's, no problem (had series 80 stuff), 'til both of 'em broke in one day during a course at TRanch (glad I had the TRS as a backup).

[This message has been edited by gm45 (edited 09-27-2001).]

gjbever

Discussion Starter · #6 · Sep 28, 2001

Gm: I just bought a TRS and love it....my pet load for IPSC and IDPA(200gr @ 160 power factor) shoots like a video game,minimal muzzle jump which makes double taps a breeze. Speaking of Thunder Ranch, would you recommend Defensive Pistol I ? I'm thinking of going down there this winter for level One course.

------------------
Everyone needs something to believe in; I believe I'll have another beer!

bucksnuffer

· #7 · Sep 28, 2001

I agree, don't let him touch your guns. And i'd find a new shop to spend your cash in.

BrianMajors

· #8 · Sep 30, 2001

The number ONE cause of an "accidental" discharge is the trigger being pulled. This has absolutely no bearing on the type of gun, since the gun itself has done exactly as is required. Pull trigger, it goes bang.
I believe some to be overly paranoid on this subject (lawyers...).

BrianMajors

· #9 · Sep 30, 2001

Originally posted by Kimber45:
The number ONE cause of an "accidental" discharge is the trigger being pulled. This has absolutely no bearing on the type of gun, since the gun itself has done exactly as is required. Pull trigger, it goes bang.
I believe some to be overly paranoid on this subject (lawyers...).

See less See more

Double Naught Spy

· #10 · Oct 1, 2001

Actually, the number one cause of negligental discharge is pulling the trigger. Accidental discharges are usually attributed to mechanical problems or failure and are fairly rare. Negligental discharges are due to human problems where the trigger gets squeezed and discharges when the person handling the gun does not expect it. It is not an accident as the problem was due to unsafe handling, hence negligence. Saying it was an accident sounds a lot better, but squeezing the trigger usually is no accident.

gm45

· #11 · Oct 1, 2001

Originally posted by gjbever:
Gm: I just bought a TRS and love it....Speaking of Thunder Ranch, would you recommend Defensive Pistol I ? I'm thinking of going down there this winter for level One course.

Sorry so long to get back. I definitely recommend Thunder Ranch. I think DH1 is the best place to start (all I've taken to date are pistol courses) then it's your choice to go further into handgun or move over into long gun courses.

Facility and people are the best there is (I have no basis of comparison, but have talked to those who have attended others that said TR was the best). The folks there aren't just excellent shooters and tacticians, they're "Teachers" too.

Be sure and check on the schedule and class availability. If you haven't already made your reservation, you may have to go next year.

TAckerman

· #12 · Oct 4, 2001

With all due respect....dump this Smith!

Think about it. There are 3 actions that need to happen for the original 1911 to fire:

1. The thumb safety has to me actuated.
2. The grip safety has to be compressed.
3. The trigger has to be pressed (not Squeesed)

Dropping the gun on the muzzle is a poor reason to justify the extra hardware in the Series 80. Condition One (Cocked and Locked) is the way things were meant to be.

Given the additional moving parts that are in the Series 80 (3 including the plunger spring, plunger and disconnect), the KISS principle comes to mind.

I wish I could find 3 Series 70's. I would buy them in a heartbeat for future designs/ modifications.

Just my .02 cents worth. Sorry if I am too passionate on this issue.

------------------
ACK

"Make the First Shot Count"!

See less See more

Huero

· #13 · Oct 9, 2001

A newbie here, so go easy on me

I have a 1991A1 Commander I just bought, and will be getting my CCW shortly. I was wondering if there have ever been any ADs from a cocked and locked 1911 type weapon inside an IWB holster?

I have confidence in Colt's designs, but my training since I was a kid says "never trust any kind of safety".

See less See more

shane45-1911

· #14 · Oct 10, 2001

Originally posted by Huero:
..."never trust any kind of safety".

I don't either, and neither does Colt. That's why you've got 3 of them on your weapon. The grip safety, thumb safety, and series 80 firing pin safety. 4 if you count the half-cock notch on the hammer. This notch is NOT to be used in the half-cock mode with the hammer. It is there in case of sear failure, causing the hammer to fall inadvertently. This notch will catch the hammer in that unlikely event.

Chances of an AD with all this good stuff is pretty remote. Not impossible, but if you practice safe gun handling skills, you've probably got a better chance of being struck by lightning. Twice.

Huero

· #15 · Oct 10, 2001

Thanks, Shane! That clears that up for me.

Electric_Armadillo

· #16 · Oct 10, 2001

Lets stop calling them "accidental discharges" and call them what they are, Negligent discharges.

To my knowledge, there hasn't been any "accidental" discharges from firearms. All of them occurred when a trigger was pressed. Lets shift the responsibility from the manufacturer to the user. ND's!

Sorry for the rant.

------------------
-Electric Armadillo-

BGPD

· #17 · Oct 29, 2001

Sorry to take so long to reply. This whole ND/AD started with Mas Ayoob stating he had 1st hand knowledge of 1911 firing in the holster of a fellow cop. He then stated he would only carry Series 80 pattern. What he didnt tell the readers of each gun magazine that ran his story was that the officer involved bought an almost 60year old 1911 and never had it chaeck by a gunsmith. The sear/hammer/safety notch were all badly worn. We all know when "Ayoob speaks everybody listens"

------------------
All that you need to do to win is survive!

BrianMajors

· #18 · Nov 3, 2001

Originally posted by Double Naught Spy:
Actually, the number one cause of negligental discharge is pulling the trigger. Accidental discharges are usually attributed to mechanical problems or failure and are fairly rare. Negligental discharges are due to human problems where the trigger gets squeezed and discharges when the person handling the gun does not expect it. It is not an accident as the problem was due to unsafe handling, hence negligence. Saying it was an accident sounds a lot better, but squeezing the trigger usually is no accident.

THanks Double Naught Spy! What I meant was negligent, but coudn't think of the word while posting this.

------------------
"Double-action in an auto pistol seems to me an ingenious solution to a non-existent problem." -Jeff Cooper G&A mag Oct. 1973

Double Naught Spy

· #19 · Nov 3, 2001

Kimber45, sorry if I came across as harsh. I had some recent dealings with the insurance agent on the differences between accidents and wrecks for cars. The difference is just like with accidental and negligental discharges.

Back on subject, some people think the Series 80 firing pin block is a great thing and it might be a good thing once in a while. That being said, it really seemed to be more of a solution to a problem that really nobody was having. Don't get me wrong, I like safe items and I would hate for someone to get hurt unintentionally, but I have never heard of that happening where someone got hurt.

GLV

· #20 · Nov 4, 2001

Those that know Ayoob, should ask him about the 80 series safety--on one of his guns--that did not work--well let me put that another way--would not allow the gun to fire. Interesting story and the reason I never trust anyone else when it comes to disassembly and reassembly of one of my guns.

I have carried 1911A1 military handguns cocked and locked, Colt GMs, 70 series, etc, etc, and never have worried about the gun going off with my finger not on the trigger. I'll bet that gunsmith uses a 'saftey' when he pleasures himself. GLV

1 - 20 of 33 Posts

This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.