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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I was reading a post by Patrickl on another thread, and got to thinking about this again...

I understand the Professional Admin's way of viewing this subject... I just don't understand why they haven't figured out the big picture.

Okay, so they SEE a hammer cocked and think "Oh ****! that can't be safe!"

Then, they go an throw an 870 Pump into a cruiser... Or maybe a Patrol Carbine like a Ruger PC, or maybe an Un-PC black rifle...

All are Single Action, all have the same consequences associated in maintaining the weapon, ready to deploy.

The difference, the EXPSOED hammer.

Sadly, the 1911 employs even MORE safeties than an 870 or AR, so why DO the paper pushers get so wrapped up in this? At some point, most HAD to have been in the trenches... Have they forgotten the simple basics? Do they even get out to the range anymore?

I know 7th Fleet has it together... If I was in the same spot, I'd want to arm my officers with the best choices...

Thoughts?



[This message has been edited by jaydee (edited 07-02-2001).]
 

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It doesn't always work, but the best way to get Aministration to understand that Cocked and Locked (Condition One) is a 'safe' carry mode is to put into terms that they can understand. One of these is liability. Once the Sheriff or Chief understands that a single action auto pistol is easier to hit with under stress, it is then easier to convince them that a trigger-cocking action is HARDER to hit with. When the pistol is easier to hit with, the chances of a wild shot causing property damage or injury to innocent bystanders, liability is reduced. If you wish to be less diplomatic, any pistol that is harder to hit with is easier to MISS with, and is therefore easier to hit innocent bystanders. That's SAFER?

Geting my old Sheriff to dump our old S&W M659s was easy; one qulification session when he was having a bad day, (and failed 4 times to qualify) I told him to take a break and have some fun, and had him run the course with my Glock. After the first twelve shots at the 35 yd line, he turned to me with a silly grin and said, "Get 'em ordered!" (he fired a score in the high 90's that time, by the way) After that, it was a simple matter to have him hold my Glock in one hand, and my 1911 in the other, and ask him what the difference was. The first simply required him to grasp the gun and apply approximately 5 lbs pressure to the trigger to fire, while the other required him to grip it properly to disengage the grip safety, disengage the slide safety with his thumb, and apply approximately 5 pbs of pressure to the trigger. Hmmm...

I also showed him that another advantage to authorizing the 1911 for LE duty use is that while hands come in different sizes, and one size don't fit all, ol' slabsides can easily be adapted to fit a wide range of hand sizes, by changing the trigger, mainspring housing, and stocks.

As a result, he allowed me to carry my 1911, but all other Deputies (except one, whose fingers were too short to grip a Glock properly) carried their issued Glocks. With our new Sheriff, who still issues Glock pistols, our Deputies can carry 1911s with the Sheriff's authorization.

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Roger Shambaugh
Ottawa, Kansas
 

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Getting the brass to understand the cocked and locked concept is only half the battle. The general non-gun owning citizenship (who will be quick to point out whose taxes pays whose salary) is not very comfortable with a hammer that is cocked. Education is key.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Actually, what's even more hilarious...

These guys are SO quick to approve Glocks, which are considered DAO's, though the more accurate term of Striker Fired (Safe Action) action really applies.

Of course, having analyzed the way the Striker is "Cocked Back" when a round is chambered, makes one wonder if it could be shown to be "Cocked & Locked" when chambered and ready to fire.

The stirker doesn't really move any further aft, and the sear is all that blocks it from moving forward, of course, the sear can't move without the trigger transfer bar being moved to the rear.

Still... since the Glock is not capable of multiple strikes like an FN FortyNine, it doesn't really cock with trigger movement, and therefore is cocked when the slide is cycled, so it could be considered similar.

Roger, I know you're right in convincing them that lowering the MISS rate is a good approach, but then, they'll still complain about them "Hair Triggers" on the Single Actions, so helping them understand that most EVERY police firearm that isn't a sidearm is usually Single Action, whether it's a Shotgun, Tactical Rifle/Carbine, or Counter Sniper rifle.
 

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At one time a holstermaker made a hammer cover, it was to help cover the hammer spur on revolvers to protect coat linings, but it worked really well to hide the fact the hammer was cocked on a 1911. The thing slid on the safety strap.

If they can't see that the hammer is cocked, they don't worry about it being cocked. Why else do they have no problems with a pump or semiauto shotgun being carried on patrol?

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jaydee, first let me say that in oklahoma the shotguns and ar's are carried "cruiser safe" this means that there is not a round in the chamber, the mag well is full the trigger is depressed (not sad though!) and the saftey is on.

i showed my chief my colt when i started carrying it, and his only complaint was that it only held 8+1 rounds insted of the 15 +1 of the issued glock 22. but he admitted that he used to carry a colt back in the 70's and understands that they are very safe weapons. so i didn't have much trouble.

i still have people asked me "why is your gun cocked" and i just smile.

i view the glock much like my seris 80 colt, they both have firing pin safties, disconnects and all that, but mine also has the easiest thumb saftey ever made, and a grip saftey, (which i could go either way on, but i would not pin it back!)

when you compare the two, the glock is more of a "cocked and unlocked"

if the 1911 was a new design, it would appeal to more people, i think the biggest thing that henders the 1911 is its age (which doesn't matter) and the fact that many people who are not qualified try to slick them up. leave to a gunsmith, or follow a step by step guide until you know the pistol.

by the way, some H&K's are made with the cocked and locked option, you can leave the hammer back and apply the saftey. hmmm maybe it is a better idea.......

russel the cop

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Originally posted by RUSSEL213:
jaydee, first let me say that in oklahoma the shotguns and ar's are carried "cruiser safe" this means that there is not a round in the chamber, the mag well is full the trigger is depressed (not sad though!) and the saftey is on.

i showed my chief my colt when i started carrying it, and his only complaint was that it only held 8+1 rounds insted of the 15 +1 of the issued glock 22. but he admitted that he used to carry a colt back in the 70's and understands that they are very safe weapons. so i didn't have much trouble.

i still have people asked me "why is your gun cocked" and i just smile.

i view the glock much like my seris 80 colt, they both have firing pin safties, disconnects and all that, but mine also has the easiest thumb saftey ever made, and a grip saftey, (which i could go either way on, but i would not pin it back!)

when you compare the two, the glock is more of a "cocked and unlocked"

if the 1911 was a new design, it would appeal to more people, i think the biggest thing that henders the 1911 is its age (which doesn't matter) and the fact that many people who are not qualified try to slick them up. leave to a gunsmith, or follow a step by step guide until you know the pistol.

by the way, some H&K's are made with the cocked and locked option, you can leave the hammer back and apply the saftey. hmmm maybe it is a better idea.......

russel the cop
Russel...

The Shotgun/Carbine IS carried "Cruiser Safe" (C3) UNTIL it is deployed. Once out of the rack, and deployed, it is typically made ready to fire, on safe (C1). The officer conducts his sweep/clearing/etc, and when the task is complete, and the situation is under control, the Shotgun/Carbine is returned to the carry position of "Cruiser Safe" (C3).

While it is not practical to do such a think with a sidearm, the reality is that the Single Action auto is carried "Cruiser Safe" as well, except in C1, instead of C3, C1 being an accepted safe mode for carry purposes.

While I am not a big H&K fan, I do want a Variant 7 USP, as I prefer C1 carry.

Last point... It seems there are a few "Admin Types" who understand the nature of the 1911, and authorize it. I am sure there are many who wouldn't.

How do those people feel about putting such an UNSAFE weapon in the hands of the FBI HRT, or LAPD SWAT, or any of the many other agencies, and units that ISSUE them?
 

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In California it is neither a matter of education, or liability, it is simply a matter of how it looks. Citizens like to point out, "Officer do you know that your gun is cocked!?!?!?!?!?!?" You can explain until you are blue in the face. The next thing you know the Chief has received a call from Mrs. So-In-So, who is offended by the lack of safety by one of his officers in regards to gun carrying and that's the end of 1911's.

We also have problems with dogs out here. Many Chief's will not allow them because they are afraid that one of them might bite someone. I have always found this hilarious. We give a gun and the power of life and death to a 21-year-old kid, with a "C" average high school education, and we don't seem to worry about this slightly post pubescent boy or girl shooting someone.
 

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I will admit that having to explain myself to the public can get tiresome, but I work for them, so I try to offer a polite explanation usually ending with the statement that safety lies between the ears, not the hands, and that while guns are dangerous, we are expected to be well enough trained to be able to carry them safely.

Sometimes I wish I could use Charlie Miller's line, though; former Crockett County (TX) Sheriff Jim Wilson tells the story of the Texas DPS deciding that the Rangers needed some firearms training, and when old Ranger Charlie Miller showed up with his 1911, a young DPS firearms instructor asked him, "Sir, isn't that dangerous?" to which Charlie replied, "Son, if the d***ed old thing wasn't dangerous, I wouldn't be carrying it!" I will admit that I have used that line a time or two with younger officers who aren't familiar with the 1911, but I've never been that undiplomatic with the public. Yet.

(NOTE: Charlie Miller carried his 1911 with the hammer on half-cock, and with the grip safety tied down by a strip of rawhide, so it really WAS dangerous. Charlie was the real deal, though, and survived several gunfights in fifty years of law enforcement service to retire and die of natural causes, so while I wouldn't carry mine that way, or recommend that anyone else do so, I won't question his judgement.)

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Roger Shambaugh
Ottawa, Kansas

[This message has been edited by KSLawman (edited 07-04-2001).]
 

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Allow me please to introduce myself. My name is Tom stark, and I was a reserve officer for 14 years. (hopefully no groans at the "reserve" statement!)
While I am a big fan of the 1911, and do believe that condition 1 is the way to carry, I am not a big fan of it being in the hands of just any cop. Before I offend anyone, please allow me to explain. I shoot PPC here in mich, and have for a number of years. There are some very good shots on some of the depts around. But there are a WHOLE bunch of guys who make me truly uncomfortable knowing they are carrying ANY gun, let alone one with a crisp snappy trigger like the 1911.
At one of the memorial PPC matches, (in memory of a fallen officer), that dept uses the match to get its officers out to shoot and qualify. (only required once a year!) Out if a possible 600, the lowest leo score was a 130! I have 120 10 or 12 X after the first 12 rounds. Now, I do know that these are exceptionally bad, and that most officers are MUCH better than that. Yet, even in my own dept, there were only 1 or 2 officers who could shoot the course and not get a bunch of 7's and even a few 0's.
I also worry a bit about poor gun handling. A local cop here sold his duty gun, (had it for years) and bragged that it didn't have 300 rounds through it! I hope he too is a more or less rare exception.
I was managing a business and after closing remembered I left a custom 32 ford out in the yard. I go in, unlock the gate, open the building, (leave the lights off) and am in the back trying to jump start this thing, (it always had a dead battery). This city had a PD that was on top of things, I was there about 10 minutes, and heard a call from one of 3 officers. All had guns out, all were VERY professional, and SAFE. While the guns were all pointing at me, I was able to observe that the trigger fingers were straight outside the trigger gaurd, as they should be. (dateing myself, this was back in the olden revolver days!) I was able to explain things, and the officers all handled the situation perfectly. I called the PD to compliment them, and sent a letter to the chief explaining how pleased I was with the way the officers handled themselves. Guys like that I have no problem with having 1911's. Problem is that most cops around here are not like that. I suppose if there were higher standards for qualifying, and if they were required to shoot a reasonable amount each year, (to me reasonable is not less than 5000), then I would not mind. Just as I said, my personal experience has been the guys I would trust with a 1911 are fewer than those I would not. Just my thoughts, hope I did not offend anyone, that was not my intent.
Thank you,
Tom Stark
 

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In our part of the PRC, the 1911 really isn't an issue. There are three departments locally that allow the weapon to be carried.

True, one does get the occasional "Do you know..." but to my knowledge none of the local public has made a big deal out of it.
 

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Tomstark,
This may be a little off-topic but I'm curious about your comment about being a reserve officer. We have a small and very understaffed office(7 full time Deputies for a county only slightly smaller than Riverside county, Cal). We count ourselves lucky to have a very dedicated number of Reserve Deputies. These people may not be academy trained, but I can assure you they have spent hundreds of hours in LE classes and thousands of man-hours on patrol. For the most part they are street savvy and will eagerly tackle any assignment they are given. Our reserves buy their own uniforms and equipment, including vests and weapons. They have collectively bought two patrol vehicles, complete with LE package. These people have bought pagers and organized themselves into a monthly "on duty" shift schedule (A.M. & P.M.). They fire the same Qualification courses as we do, and attend the same P.O.S.T. courses we attend. These guys (and one gal) bring dedication, enthusiasm, and a willingness to learn and improve that is often times missing in a career Deputy. Our reserves have been involved in every aspect of LE work including rolling out at 0 dark-thirty as back-up on felony stops and shootings. Frankly, we work them to death, and they do all this for FREE, while holding down full time jobs. I'm not sure what kind of groans you might expect to hear, for having been a reserve officer, but you will never hear them from me. There isn't ONE of them that would hesitate to engage in a hostile situation to save my worthless old butt, and you can't buy or train for that! Just my .02. Montana Cop
 

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Tomstark,
This may be a little off-topic but I'm curious about your comment about being a reserve officer. We have a small and very understaffed office(7 full time Deputies for a county only slightly smaller than Riverside county, Cal). We count ourselves lucky to have a very dedicated number of Reserve Deputies. These people may not be academy trained, but I can assure you they have spent hundreds of hours in LE classes and thousands of man-hours on patrol. For the most part they are street savvy and will eagerly tackle any assignment they are given. Our reserves buy their own uniforms and equipment, including vests and weapons. They have collectively bought two patrol vehicles, complete with LE package. These people have bought pagers and organized themselves into a monthly "on duty" shift schedule (A.M. & P.M.). They fire the same Qualification courses as we do, and attend the same P.O.S.T. courses we attend. These guys (and one gal) bring dedication, enthusiasm, and a willingness to learn and improve that is often times missing in a career Deputy. Our reserves have been involved in every aspect of LE work including rolling out at 0 dark-thirty as back-up on felony stops and shootings. Frankly, we work them to death, and they do all this for FREE, while holding down full time jobs. I'm not sure what kind of groans you might expect to hear, for having been a reserve officer, but you will never hear them from me. There isn't ONE of them that would hesitate to engage in a hostile situation to save my worthless old butt, and you can't buy or train for that! Just my .02. Montana Cop
 

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The Shotgun/Carbine IS carried "Cruiser Safe" (C3) UNTIL it is deployed. Once out of the rack, and deployed, it is typically made ready to fire, on safe (C1). The officer conducts his sweep/clearing/etc, and when the task is complete, and the situation is under control, the Shotgun/Carbine is returned to the carry position of "Cruiser Safe" (C3).
Remember, the shotgun/carbine is not carried at all times by the officer. The pistol is, and is the first line of defense. The pistol had better be ready to fire at a moments notice, there may be no time to rack a slide, or the officer may be disabled or not able to rack a slide. It seems to me, that the ideal pistol would be one that will fire instantly when the officer wants it to, and will give the officer 5-10 seconds to get it back if it is taken from him. Which fits the bill, a C/L 1911 or a Glock??

Jack
 

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Montana Cop,
Thanks for the kind words. It varies here from dept to dept, some places the reserves are well liked, and appreciated, some they are reffered to as scabs. My experience has been that most reserves are pretty good and on top of things. Of course, there are exceptions, fortunately they have been few in my observations. In our city, we were used mostly for traffic. There were many times that I would be out in the pouring rain, directing traffic at a busy intersection, (national news did a story about the top most dangerous intersections in the US, one of the top ten was near our city, and no busier, just a few more accidents. We hafve some TRAFFIC!), so that the regulars could be free to do their jobs. I never minded, that was what I signed up for. ALL the traffic safety guys loved us. While we did not write tickets, we would "bird dog" for them, kicking up all sorts of violations for them. Some nights they would just spend going from one of our calls to the next. Makes me wish there was a commission on tickets! I would be rich.
Oh well, your words are appreciated greatly, guys like you always made it great to work the road.
Tom
 

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i think you should be able to carry any weapon you can qualify with including a cocked and locked 1911. It in the right hands is a superior defensive weapon. Glock makes a killing because they are almost idiot proof. When the Louisville Police switched from a Smith 6946 to a lock 22 they had 3 AD's I know about all were due to the officers mishandling the weapon. When on active duty a Gunny told me the most important safety on any firearm was the one behind the trigger... I agree
 

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Originally posted by lawdog1834:
Glock makes a killing because they are almost idiot proof.
For an "almost" idiot proof weapon they sure seem to bring out the idiots. Never in my entire career have I seen so many ND's and AD's as I have seen with the Glock.
 

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Originally posted by Patrickl:
For an "almost" idiot proof weapon they sure seem to bring out the idiots. Never in my entire career have I seen so many ND's and AD's as I have seen with the Glock.

While I am a firm beleiver in never blaming a "software" problem on the "hardware", I have to say ditto on Patrick's experience. Of course an incident in central Kentucky demonstrates that DA guns have the same problems also... an officer recently shot his thumb off and killed the subject in a car who was unarmed. Last time I heard that dept carried Sigs but I don' know for certain what was used in this particular case.

Nothing is "idiot proof" - not even an anvil


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Jim Higginbotham

[This message has been edited by JimH (edited 07-14-2001).]
 

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This is kind of ironic but back in the late 80s, when I went back to FBI LEO Firearms Instructor School, for Revolver to Auto Pistol transistion training. They would not let me or several other LEO's use our 1911s. I had to use my Glock 17 in that school. Now it seems that the FBI, is issuing Springfield Armory 1911s to their agents. I just worked with an agent and that is what he was carrying, because he made a comment about how nice my Kimber was.

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