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Discussion Starter #1
Well, still waiting for the arrival of my Ultra CDP *sigh*.

As I wait, I decided to read archives for any additional items of concern.

The cocked & locked issue came into my head and I have a question about the Kimber safety. Last night I was in a movie theatre with my normal carry pistol (OWB). I'm a big guy so there was a little clunking of gun metal on the seat as I shifted postions throughout the movie. I plan on carrying my Ultra once I get it and some concerns popped into my head.
If I was in the same situation above with my Kimber and the seat depressed the grip safety and hammer somehow fell, would I get a AD? I know in most cases you need to pull the trigger to get the hammer to fall but you never know. I also know the safety would need to be swiped off.
I guess my main concern is heavy contact with a 1911 in close quarters and having a safety issue.

Thanks...
 

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Of course if the thumb safety was off and the grip safety somehow was depressed and the hammer fell for some reason, you would get an AD. Under what circumstances do you think you would have the thumb safety knocked off and the grip safety depressed and somehow the hammer falling? The hammer should not fall unless the trigger is depressed. The trigger won't depress unless the grip safety is depressed and the thumb safety is off. Those are not likely to happen unless you do it intentionally.

If you have a holster that has a thumb break, your concerns should be completely negated. The thumb break really isn't there to prevent ADs, but to keep the gun in the holster, but it would help with the concern you have.

As you described your situation of a combination of circumstances that would result in a bad situation, understand that what you are talking about probably will only happen if you get hit by a meteor falling from the sky after you left the thumb safety off and so the meteor both depressed the grip safety and crushed the hammer forward into the firing pin. However, you won't know about the AD because you are already dead.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
So, Double Naught... you're saying it could happen?

Ha ha...just kidding.

My concern was with all the moving around in close quarters, I may happen to "hit the lottery" and get all the right sets of circumstances to happen.

But as you said, unless the stars align, I should be OK....right?
 

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Originally posted by Packing Patriot:
My concern was with all the moving around in close quarters, I may happen to "hit the lottery" and get all the right sets of circumstances to happen.

But as you said, unless the stars align, I should be OK....right?
If you are worried so much about all those factors, you should be more worried about your current carry gun. Matter of fact, you really shouldn't be carrying at all.

For a properly maintained 1911 to go off you have to have the thumb safety off, the grip safety drepressed, and the trigger pulled.

If haven't done all of that, you or someone else has either modified or f*cked with your sear in some way.

Otherwise, if you did do all of that and you didn't mean for the gun to go bang, you have some reality issues, because that is called a Negligent Discharge and you put your finger on the trigger!

Either way, you are a moron and you shouldn't be carrying any gun.

If cocked and locked 1911s were accidentially going off all the time and putting holes in people and things, people wouldn't be carrying them, you'd see it all over the news, lawsuits would be happening left and right, and gun manufacturers wouldn't be making them.


[This message has been edited by Gun Nut (edited 11-24-2001).]
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Gun Nut....and I stress "nut"...take a pill!

I was just expressing some concern and asking some simple questions.

You say I "should be worried more about my current carry gun"?? YOU DON"T EVEN KNOW WHAT I CARRY.

Many come here to ask simple questions in regards to 1911's... we all wern't born with one in our hands like you.

...and as far as calling me a moron...well, let's just say that from the tone of your answer, you have properly identified the true "moron"...have a nice holiday.

Oh, also, in regards to my reply to Double Naught, I would tell you I was using sarcasm but it's too big a word for you.



[This message has been edited by Packing Patriot (edited 11-24-2001).]
 

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Packing Patriot,

Ditto! Enjoy your Ultra CDP. You're gonna love it!!

------------------
"Make yourselves sheep and the wolves will eat you."-- Benjamin Franklin
 

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Originally posted by Packing Patriot:
Gun Nut....and I stress "nut"...take a pill!
First of all, there is no need for name calling.

I was just expressing some concern and asking some simple questions.

You say I "should be worried more about my current carry gun"?? YOU DON"T EVEN KNOW WHAT I CARRY.
And I was giving you straight, serious, unsarcastic answers. If you want butter or sweets, buy a muffin. I don't need to know what you carry. That is exactly the point. If you think there are issues with all the safeties provided on the 1911, you won't be satisfied with carrying any gun out there. There is no safer gun.

Many come here to ask simple questions in regards to 1911's... we all wern't born with one in our hands like you.

...and as far as calling me a moron...well, let's just say that from the tone of your answer, you have properly identified the true "moron"...have a nice holiday.

Oh, also, in regards to my reply to Double Naught, I would tell you I was using sarcasm but it's too big a word for you.
First of all, I didn't call *YOU* a moron. If you would go back and *READ* my post, you will see that. I stated that "You", being in general, are a moron if a) the sear was modified on your gun incorrectly, or even at all, and b) all safeties have been disengaged, the gun is held in hand, the trigger is pulled, the gun goes off, and it wasn't expected. If *YOU* did that, then you would *BE* a moron, and hopefully Darwinian theories would take their course.

I have read the board code of conduct and follow it. I do not resort to name calling. I don't need to. I understand you were using sarcasm. It was quite obvious.

However, you asked a serious and simple question. I answered it quite simply and seriously. It doesn't require you to be born with a gun in your hands to read and understand the answer that I gave, only a mediocre knowledge of English comprehension.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Gun Nut...

We will agree to disagree on what was said and leave it at that...

I'm sorry but I saw no *advice* in your reply... only bitterness for a guy with a question.

Thanks for all you have done...have a nice day!!! *insert sarcastic wink here*
 

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IF you have the gun Cocked and locked. there is NO way in #### if will go off. It's when people start playing with cocked and locked 1911's that they go off. I'm like the guy's above, Maybe you need to get a BB gun and start all over,
 

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Patriot, If I read your post right you're afraid the gun might go off by itself? You don't trust the design?

I wouldn't carry that 1911 if I were you. I'm not trying to be mean or sarcastic but you obviously aren't comfortable with the design.

That's OK. lot's of guys like 1911's but carry something they are less intimidated by like a Glock or a traditional double action pistol.

This would be my advise to you. By all means keep the Kimber and learn to be more comfortable with it. But you shouldn't be carrying something that scares you.

I know from experience that your expressed anxiety is unfounded and eventually you will too. In the mean time stick to whatever you're carrying now.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Orion...

First, thanks for advice and not just a slam on my question.

It's not that I don't trust the design...
My question was, could a realtively normal set of circumstances that everyone may encounter in everyday life (like a tight fitting theatre seat) lend to an AD if some set of events took place. That's it...I never said I was scared or doubted the design. I was asking some people here who I thought would be honest in saying that under certain circumstances it may happen so be more careful.

But instead I got told I was a child and to go back to BB guns?

Let me vent by saying most people just lurk here because they are afraid to get flammed by people who *think* they are giving advice but in actuality are doing more damage than good.

I am speaking mostly of others who replied to the thread harshly. You tried to put it nicely but really didn't understand the question either.

In regards to others,I just hope someday, when I grow up, I can beat up on people on this site too.

Thanks for at least trying to sound civil rather than just biting my head off.
 

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Maybe this sounds to simple to try but when you are home and safe, with an UNLOADED GUN try carring it cocked with the safty off and see if you can get the hammer to fall, BUT DOUBLE CHECK TO SEE IT UNLOADED.
 

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Hammer down on an empty chamber is as safe as it gets- chambering one takes all of 2 seconds. Nothing wrong with cocked/locked carry, it is VERY SAFE.
 

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Well I guess I am the moron,I ment SAFETY.
Also I didn't mean you aren't safe I just don't want anyone getting shot.
How do you edit your orginal message? My mind works faster than my fingers,but I can hit what I shoot at.


[This message has been edited by shootingfarm (edited 11-25-2001).]

[This message has been edited by shootingfarm (edited 11-25-2001).]
 

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Packing Patriot
I personally have carried a 1911 cocked and locked for 40 years. These 1911's have ranged from the biggest piece of loose and sloppy government issue junk to some of the finest 1911's ever made.

I have never had an AD while carrying a cocked ands locked 1911.

I even had one issued gun that had such a loose saftey that it would be off safe 50% of the time.

Try the following:
Load and insert a mag and cock and lock to SAFE.
Face down range and pull the trigger. Repeat this exercise until you feel confortable with the gun.

Next face down range and apply the saftey to FIRE.
Using both hands to hold and work the gun DO NOT apply pressure to the grip saftey and pull the trigger until you feel confortable with the gun.

If the internal mechainism, sear, saftey etc. etc., is to spec you will not be able to make a 1911 discharge doing the above drills.

John Browning desiged the 1911 to be carried cocked and locked and the gun has proven over the last 90 to be safe when carried in such a manner.

Also a cocked and locked 1911 is the fastest
gun to deploy for first shot in a combat situation.

I also carry A CDP ULTRA and I have had a gunsmith drill the "on and off" safety
detents a little deeper.

My primary carry holster is a Kirkpatrick Model #2010 which covers the ambi safeties.

Some guys remove or only have the left hand safety because of the reasons you have raised.
 

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Patriot, I guess I don't understand your question.

I read your statement "...most cases the trigger needs to be pulled for the hammer to fall but you never know."

That to me infers your lack of confidence in the design.

I for one am certain that my carry gun is functioning properly and that in EVERY CASE;

1) The grip safety must be disengaged.

2) The thumb safety must be disengaged.

3) The trigger must be engaged.

None of my 1911's will fire without those three things happening.

There are no less than three things that must go wrong for an AD to happen in your pants.

Yes, it's POSSIBLE that your thumb safety could be disengaged during the course of the day without your knowing it.

Yes it's possible that something could get caught on the grip safety and depress it.

Yes it's possible for something, somehow to get inside the trigger guard and engage the trigger.

I don't know what circumstances could cause all three of those things to happen.

I personally carry mine in a well made IWB holster that nothing can intrude upon. I don't know of anything that could be forceful enough to penetrate my pants, and my holster but be subtle enough for me not to notice.

If you can think of a way that all three of these things could be going on in YOUR pants without YOU knowing please, PLEASE change your lifestyle! (Sarcasm added to keep the integrity of this thread maintained)
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Thank you all for the help...

I guess in written words in a forum such as this, it is hard sometimes to get your point across.
I apologize for any abiguity...
 

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i'm a newbie so dont flame me, but i thought on the "new" designs, the kimbers have a trigger safety. meaning it's impossible for the hammer to fall without the trigger being pulled. i'm correct arent i ? - patriot's first question was can the hammer fall, not can the trigger be pulled. that said, it is impossible for the hammer to fall without the trigger being pulled isnt it?
 

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sreiter,

these are the Series II versions of Kimbers which have the trigger block. These are the only ones approved for sale in CA, so mine came with it. Don't know how common they are on Kimbers sold in other states.
 

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Originally posted by sreiter:
i'm a newbie so dont flame me, but i thought on the "new" designs, the kimbers have a trigger safety. meaning it's impossible for the hammer to fall without the trigger being pulled. i'm correct arent i ? - patriot's first question was can the hammer fall, not can the trigger be pulled. that said, it is impossible for the hammer to fall without the trigger being pulled isnt it?
First of all, you don't get flamed for being a newbie. And, a stupid question is the only one not asked.

Anything with a "II" on a Kimber has the new FIRING PIN safety. The pin is blocked from movement unless you depress the grip safety. This would prevent a discharge in the event of a sear failure while carrying in "Condition 1" (Cocked and Locked).

This differs from the Colt Series 80/90 firing pin safety in that you must pull the trigger to remove the pin block. People say that it messes with the feel of the trigger because of the extra function it provides.

I have never seen or heard of a sear failure period in which the sear was not tampered with (a la trigger jobs).

Personally, I actually find more value to a Colt Series 80 safety over the Kimber "II" safety for Carrying Concealed inside the waist/pants. This is because, if anything might actually get accidentally functioned on a CCWed 1911, it would be the grip safety. I certainly would hope no one would pull a trigger without expecting the gun to go off.

Packing Patriot's original post was concerned about normal everyday carrying knocking the pistol around and disengaging the thumb and grip safeties.

For carrying thumb strap holstered 1911s, you would not be able to drop the hammer without interference from the thumb strap itself.

I personally think a firing pin safety on the 1911 is a waste for anything except carrying concealed inside the waist/pants. And as I stated before, I prefer the Colt Series 80 safety. Even then, it is of marginal value, but if I have a gun pointed at my privates, I'm willing to have an added barrier for my own piece of mind. If I were not carrying in that manner, I would not be concerned at all about a pin block.

Jeff Cooper was just talking about a 1911 that had been stored loaded, cocked and locked for about 70 years. Nothing ever happened. The springs didn't even take a set, and it shoots without failure.
 
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