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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
When I shoot either IDPA or USPSA matches, more individuals in my area are moving towards shooting 9mm Pistol Caliber Carbines.....some of these shooters use short barrels with suppressors, and 30 round mags.....There are many advantages to using these firearm that are not OK for pistol shooters in IDPA:

1) they are not concealed, and are already mounted to their shoulder and the muzzle pointing downward at a 45 degree angle to the ground..... this starting position will save at least one to two seconds to fire the shot, since they don't have to draw from concealment...…

2) the use of a suppressor will greatly reduce the noise, and at more than one match, we have had to have a reshoot when the SO did not record the last shot fired since he was not standing close enough for the noise to show the last shot. Using a suppressor will also slightly reduce muzzle jump....

3) 30+ round mags will save from having to make a reload....another 2-3 seconds saved during the run when their are 18 required shots.....

4) Using a shouldered Short Barrel Rifle (in 9mm) is much easier to shoot, and when using optics, is a significant advantage for accurate shot placement.

Many of the current shooters using Pistol Caliber Carbines are now placing High Overall and most finish in the top ten at the matches I attend.....which is no wonder that more shooters are buying pistol caliber carbines to show how good they can shoot!!!

I am probably going to quit shooting IDPA. The sport was originally conceived and designed for shooting pistols from concealment, not short barreled rifles that are not concealed.....the PCC users are shooting a rifle against a pistol, and do very well!

IMHO, a person that shoots a Pistol Caliber Carbine should not be included in the competitive scoring with pistol shooters.....A PCC shooter should be ranked against all PCC shooters, since they all share many competitive advantages over pistols......and ranked for all PCC shooters separately....and certainly not included in the High Overall ranking against pistol shooters.....

I know Joyce and Bill Wilson earn more money when more people attend and shoot IDPA matches, but guidelines need to be drawn up so PCC shooters are ranked against other PCC shooters, and not against Pistol shooters..... I do not know of any PCC shooters that carry their weapon concealed.....it is just not practical......:confused: I want to compete against pistol shooters....and not rifle shooters at a pistol match when looking at the overall match results!!!:confused: Good bye IDPA.....!!!
 

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I don't shoot IDPA but do shoot USPSA. I agree with everything you said. PCC needs to form their own league with stages designed specifically for them. The idea that it draws new shooters is crap. What happens is all the **** pistol shooters that can't compete switch to PCC.

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Not as much as I thought it was going to be. We only had one carbine at the mid-week USPSA match yesterday. It did not function well at all, the operator's response expanded my vocabulary. DIY PCCs and attempts at tweaking power factor for a 16" barrel lead to a lot of malfunctions.
 

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While we have a few PCC shooters in our area (S Louisiana), it's not taking over the USPSA here. They still get beat by Open shooters (and occasionally a CO or Ltd shooter).

As far as IDPA, I see even fewer of them...but we only have 1 active club in Louisiana.

I am firmly in the "don't bring a rifle to a pistol competition" camp, but I don't get to make the rules...just have to enforce them in the match.
 

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Perhaps if the sports had different divisions, so that PCC shooters were compared to PCC shooters, SSP shooters were compared to SSP shooters, and Production shooters were compared to Production shooters...
 

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PCC is just a division within the sport. Some clubs might lump all the divisions in one big scoresheet but it isnt hard to break them out.

If your going to quit shooting IDPA because you got your feelings hurt by someone shooting a PCC, you need to toughen up a little. Its just a game.
 

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From the IDPA Rulebook 1.1.D

Provide separate divisions for equipment and classifications for shooters, such that firearms with similar characteristics are grouped together and people with similar skill levels compete against each other.
 

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I have not shot IDPA for a few years now. The way it was back when, there were different classes for different handguns. Has it changed that much?
 

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I don't shoot IDPA but do shoot USPSA. I agree with everything you said. PCC needs to form their own league with stages designed specifically for them. The idea that it draws new shooters is crap. What happens is all the **** pistol shooters that can't compete switch to PCC.

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Agree I shoot USPSA as well they need a separate league. I see some clubs setting stages harder for them to shoot now also
 

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Overall results really don't matter, you are only competing against people in your own division. Also suppressors aren't allowed in USPSA, not sure about IDPA.

It's fun to make fun of them, but it your complaints are pretty much irrelevant. Do you have the same issues with Carry Optics shooters or Open division shooters when you do USPSA?
 

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I'm confused the USPSA matches I've been to, PCC was a separate class. All were 16" 9mm's. Didn't see any with suppressors. Open shooters still took all the "marbles"!

Smiles,
 

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I've seen that last part allowed to slide in club matches. Braces are so kewl, you know, and one entry fee is as good as another.

Do you have the same issues with Carry Optics shooters or Open division shooters when you do USPSA?
No, at least they are still pistols. IPSC/USPSA was a pistol sport for about 40 years before the wannabe tommygunners came along, and IDPA SAYS Pistol.
 

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IMHO, a person that shoots a Pistol Caliber Carbine should not be included in the competitive scoring with pistol shooters.....A PCC shooter should be ranked against all PCC shooters, since they all share many competitive advantages over pistols......and ranked for all PCC shooters separately....and certainly not included in the High Overall ranking against pistol shooters.....
Definitely agree.

But I guess everyone understands when they see that a PCC shooter won overall. It's expected. And the top Open guys will still do better than the top revolver guys, etc.

But I'm with you on the spirit of "a handgun competition should involve only handguns." By now, there are enough PCC shooters, I imagine they could run their own matches.
 

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meh. I feel like it's complaining about nothing.

I was definitely a hater in the beginning, but for different reasons. Until they got the procedures down it slowed down the matches and people were designing stages differently because of it.
Now it's not even a thing.

We still make fun of them though, that's allowed.
 

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Definitely agree.

But I guess everyone understands when they see that a PCC shooter won overall. It's expected. And the top Open guys will still do better than the top revolver guys, etc.
a) overall isn't a thing.
b) pcc shooters only 'win' the overall if there is no real heat in other divisions and even then only if they are serious pcc shooters. I would be shocked if a pcc was high overall at one of our matches.
 

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meh. I feel like it's complaining about nothing.

I was definitely a hater in the beginning, but for different reasons. Until they got the procedures down it slowed down the matches and people were designing stages differently because of it.
Now it's not even a thing.

We still make fun of them though, that's allowed.
Exactly how I feel. Now that they are not slowing down the match, I only care long enough to mock them a bit, especially in the unusual event that one of them finishes in front of me (I shoot lim or SS). Actually some of my best friends shoot pcc. I think that makes me diverse and open-minded. :rock:
 
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