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The IDPA matches at my club usually draw around 60 shooters and of them about 8-10 PCC's, some of which shoot a pistol class too. Except for the nubs they usually clean up but not always. For the reasons you mentioned I don't think PCC shooters are on an even playing field, well that at strong/weak hand only shooting is a joke. I think they only thing that slows them down are mandatory reloads and sometimes shooting from a vehicle or the like. The only thing that slows the matches down is they don't come to the line ready but with a case and somebody has to bring that when they finish but that's not that much.
All in all I just ignore the PCC's in the scores and it's fun anyway. I mean I could shoot PCC too but I go there for P.
 

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My take on PCC in IDPistolA is that, "I think", it was incorporated as an attempt to get more "NEW" and"crossover" shooters into IDPA.
However, new shooters rarely pick a PCC as their first competition firearm, and the "crossover" ain't happening. Most USPSA PCC shooters aren't too interested in running an 18 round max course of fire with their 30 round PCC. And I don't blame them.
The PCC shooters I see at IDPA matches were already shooting IDPA handgun.
 

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IPSC/USPSA was a pistol sport for about 40 years before the wannabe tommygunners came along,

Hmmm.

International Practical Shooting Confederation.
United States practical Shooting Assn.

Not finding the word pistol in either one of them.

I just dont get it. How are PCC shooters actually hurting you? It is getting more people out shooting instead of sitting at home.

Isnt that what we want? For the Sport to continue?

I shoot every division other than L-10. And thats because I dont live in a 10 round state.
 

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You guys in the Separate Divisions camp need to lobby Practiscore to quit posting overall standings.
Or, maybe take a second to learn how to sort using the second column where it lists overall and then all the other divisions.

Most people around here like to see the overall and then take a look at how they did in their own division.
 

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I've been seeing some long time shooters shooting pcc for a change of pace. But the new shooters I've been seeing start with pcc and I doubt they'll ever compete with a handgun when they realize how much they'll likely drop in the overall. To be near the top in any division is difficult but pcc is an easier way to move up some spots in the overall.
 

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Discussion Starter #28 (Edited)
IDPA and Pistol Caliber Carbines

If your going to quit shooting IDPA because you got your feelings hurt by someone shooting a PCC,
No my feelings are not hurt....so thank you for your sarcastic remark. It is because the PCC is not a level playing field with pistols, and does not follow the original reason why IDPA was founded.....

A PCC is essentially a short barreled rifle using a pistol round...…So for IDPA, it is shooting a rifle in a pistol match.....

A PCC can not be easily concealed, so in IDPA they start with the weapon shouldered and muzzle pointing down....

A PCC shooter does not draw from concealment using a holster.....

A PCC with a thirty round mag usually does not need to make a magazine change on most stage designs......

A PCC generally has a longer sight radius, and if a reflex optic sight is used, this is a major advantage over a pistol especially on long shots of 35 or more yards....

Yet most clubs group all PCC shooters showing High Overall scores along with the pistol shooters....to me, this does not make sense.....

There are ways to mitigate the advantages of using a PCC, such as having them start with a maximum of 10 + 1 rounds in the gun.....do not allow suppressors, and perhaps only allow PCC's with iron sights.....

However, my disappointment with all of the quibbling and arguing about the rules and the stage designs in IDPA has been brewing for a while, and the addition of allowing short barreled rifles used in a competitive pistol match means I may no longer shoot IDPA. I simply have more fun with other shooting sports.....:)
 

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I simply have more fun with other shooting sports
Such as?
I consider USPSA to be equally afflicted, even though as Tom points out, it doesn't have "pistol" in the logo. If 32 shots are keweler than 18, the PCC user doesn't care, he has a 40 shot magazine.

I see attendance down at the smaller clubs either type. The larger places seem to be holding their own.

I am going to one of those "I am smarter than Bill Wilson" shoots tomorrow. It reads a lot like second year IDPA with speed reloads but we are assured that it is not choreographed to require everybody to shoot the same way. It has not spread beyond the designer's home range.

I note that the Blue Press regularly plugs a "less complicated" shoot that has several locations in the northwest. There is an offshoot in the south that has the most complicated target and scoring I have seen.
 

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I would say that people need something/somewhere to compete with their PCCs. I don't know if it's a "thing" or not but my club has started having Two Gun matches where you use a pistol and PCC, haven't shot one yet but actually sounds fun.
 

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I understand the logic, PCC is hoped to be a growth area.

I wonder if there will be a widespread move to organize the AR "pistol" owners.
USPSA and IDPA specifically disallow them; although I have seen some MDs look the other way to get their business.

I see a bit of two gun and am surprised there is not more. Sustained fire with a shotgun is a bit of a circus trick and there are a lot of people who don't want to be bothered.
 

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There are ways to mitigate the advantages of using a PCC, such as having them start with a maximum of 10 + 1 rounds in the gun.....do not allow suppressors, and perhaps only allow PCC's with iron sights.....
Why would you want to hamstring them? Just let them shoot their game in their own division. If you arent shooting PCC, they are competing in a different division.

Maybe the guy with the PCC uses it as a house gun and he wants some trigger time and/or wants to see how an AR handles in a higher stress environment. How is that a bad thing?

IPSC/USPSA and Steel Challenge both allow PCCs. Steel Challenge (just like IDPA) even allows rimfires. Unless you start your own outlaw match with no PCC allowed you might have someone show up with one.
 

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C. Muzzle Devices: Flash hiders, compensators, and muzzle brakes are permitted.

That's the inclusive list of allowed muzzle devices. I don't see suppressor on there.
I don't know how timers would work with those anyway. Even a non suppressed PCC is sometimes an issue to get the timer to hear all the shots.
 

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Discussion Starter #34 (Edited)
PCC in a pistol match

Why would you want to hamstring them....?
I don't want to see a short barreled rifle participating in a competitive pistol match regardless if is in a separate division.....just as I don't want to see a shotgun with a 19 round magazine in a competitive pistol match....and I own one and use it for 3-gun competition.....

I say let the short barreled rifle shooters (PCC) compete in two gun or three gun competition, or any other venues where rifles are used.....

I have listed all of the competitive advantages of a PCC compared to shooting a pistol in IDPA in my post.....no one has to agree with my rationale, nor do I have to compete with people that shoot shoulder mounted short barreled rifles in a pistol match! If the PCC was on a level playing field with pistols, then having a separate gun division would be fine.....but they are not.....
 

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I don't want to see a short barreled rifle participating in a competitive pistol match regardless if is in a separate division.....just as I don't want to see a shotgun with a 19 round magazine in a competitive pistol match....and I own one and use it for 3-gun competition.....

I say let the short barreled rifle shooters (PCC) compete in two gun or three gun competition, or any other venues where rifles are used.....

I have listed all of the competitive advantages of a PCC compared to shooting a pistol in IDPA in my post.....no one has to agree with my rationale, nor do I have to compete with people that shoot shoulder mounted short barreled rifles in a pistol match! If the PCC was on a level playing field with pistols, then having a separate gun division would be fine.....but they are not.....
We could require 10 round max and trenchcoats...
 

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Maybe the guy with the PCC uses it as a house gun and he wants some trigger time and/or wants to see how an AR handles in a higher stress environment. How is that a bad thing?.
The main thing he needs to learn is whether the darn thing works.
Malfs in PCCs, especially but not limited to homebuilts, are much more common than in match or service pistols.
 

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We could require 10 round max and trenchcoats...
+1 on the L10 mod, but I was going to say lying on a table a few feet away, and mag not inserted. That's far more "realistic" which I think IDPA cares about?
 

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How are 10 round magazines realistic for carbines? That demonstrates the real goal... handicapping the PCC shooter.
The first PCC I bought was to allow me to practice with a carbine and use steel. The 9mm AR and the 223 house carbine have similar recoil and the same manual of arms. This was years before PCC was allowed in USPSA, but when USPSA allowed them, it became a great venue to dial in the use of the carbine.
I think I'd find IDPA stages too limiting for PCC, but I don't care if someone wants to shoot one.
 

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In our local USPSA outlaw matches I regularily shoot PPC in 9mm. My purpose is to keep up my "carbine" skills. I use 10 round mags exclusively to add to the practice, magazine changes!

Our league has a separate classification for PCC.

I also utilize my POST certification to do LEO and military police training at a private indoor range. The PCC allows CQC and transition drills with B-27 targets.

It really adds another dimension to their pistol training and "quals"!

Lots of fun too!
 
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