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I dare say everybody looks at the overall.
Isn't beating somebody with a fancier gun the goal?
I look at the overall at local matches just for more depth because I'm usually first or 2nd in my division. I pay no attention whatsoever to the overall at major matches where my division has real heat. I could care less about beating someone with a fancier gun, because many of those people suck at shooting. I just want to beat the people that are usually a little bit ahead of me.
 

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My take on PCCs is simple:

If gets more people into the sport or retains more people in the sport, I’ll support it.

I’m competing against other people in my division, so I don’t care. I’ve shot Revolver and BUG in my State’s IDPA championship and throughly enjoyed myself. Was I competitive against SSP/ ESP / CDP shooters? For the most part no, but I did beat many others in those higher capacity divisions, which is always gratifying.


Stage design has much to do with how successful a PCC shooter can be- lots of tight angles often is their nemesis.
 

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Discussion Starter #44
Short barreled rifles....

A rifle is a firearm fired from the shoulder, while a pistol is a firearm fired using one or both hands.....

A PCC is a lighter and more compact rifle using a pistol round, and is fired from the shoulder.....

It is much easier to fire a shoulder mounted weapon to stabilize the firearm, and allows very precise shooting with good ammo and a good trigger....

A PCC has several distinct advantages in a sport that was designed for pistol shooting..... and the speed of firing controlled pairs with a shoulder mounted weapon that is heavier than a pistol is a big plus.....
 

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A PCC has several distinct advantages in a sport that was designed for pistol shooting..... and the speed of firing controlled pairs with a shoulder mounted weapon that is heavier than a pistol is a big plus.....
It might be an advantage on longer shots if they were actually competing in your division. But they're not. And they have a huge disadvantage on leans, ports, prop manipulation, etc...

If you can't fire "controlled pairs" at a similar speed on closer targets, you might want to address that. We have a number of M-class pcc shooters here, and they pretty much always get beat by the top guys in open, limited, CO and even singlestack. I don't really care about that tho except to make fun of them. :rock:
 

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I think it's funny when some guy with a 5000.00 STI gets smoked by a 500.00 PSA pcc. Not sure why it really matters, you compete against your division. Only one person wins high overall and he can be from any division. Put more practice time if you are butthurt getting beat by PCCs. I don't think they are going anywhere. 30 round mags? They work in pistols too.
 

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Only one person wins high overall and he can be from any division.
actually nobody wins high overall, because it's not a thing. Not even recognized by the rules. Unless of course it's an iron-sight shooter, then it totally counts. :rock:
 

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I agree with Tom Freeman. Get past the overall standings and see how you rank in your division. You can also sort by age category in Practiscore, which I often do as I'm 75 which makes me a Super Senior in USPSA and a Distinguished Senior in IDPA. Also, at 75, I'm a participant or enthusiast, not a competitor.
 

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Well, I won't be 75 til next month, but I compete as best I can.
Standards are relaxed from a couple of decades ago, middle of the pack is good.

Since SS and DS start at 65, I think we need a Codger Category.
 

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I never cared one whit about the overall. I always sort practiscore by division.

At our club PCC is very popular, sometimes I shoot my SBR 9mm just for fun. Suppressors are forbidden.

I have never shot in Open division either, so never paid attention to their scores. As someone else stated, just ignore those competitors scores.

Its so popular that our range has also added a PCC only match to the monthly schedule, so now there's two opportunities each month to shoot a PCC.

The only down side I have seen is the belly aching from the occasional individual who doesn't like it. Like usual, you can't please everyone......So like I do with the overall scores, I just ignore them.....
 

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A rifle is a firearm fired from the shoulder, while a pistol is a firearm fired using one or both hands.
You seem really hung up on the term short barreled rifle. I am not sure why.

Also, please confirm that the IDPA club that you shoot at posts results to Practiscore? If they do, has anyone ever showed you how to sort results by division?

This past weekend in a monthly USPSA/IPSC match that I help run we had about 45 shooters, 12 of them shooting PCC. Some were 16 inch rifles and some were NFA/SBR guns. I shot revolver with my Smith 929. Looking at the overall results, I got beat by a bunch of guns and I beat a lot of people in other divisions. It isnt the end of the world. Had I shot my Sig MPX or CMMG Guard, I might have won PCC division. Maybe not. It doesn't mean I am going to quit shooting. Looking at the shooters in Revo division, I absolutely dominated. The only other guy shooting revo was nobody. I had a good time hanging out with friends and putting holes in cardboard.
 

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Discussion Starter #54 (Edited)
USPSA match with 45 shooters.....

You seem really hung up on the term short barreled rifle. I am not sure why.
A PCC is a short barreled rifle using a pistol round. By definition, a rifle is a shoulder mounted weapon...…

In the USPSA match described by Tom Freeman, out of 45 competitors, 12 were shooting PCC's....so over 25% of the shooters were using shoulder fired weapons.

I believe there is a place for using a PCC, but not at a pistol match....IDPA and USPSA were originally conceived as a pistol match....not a short barreled rifle match..... Shooting a handgun with speed and accuracy has always been my goal in IDPA and USPSA.....not a short barreled rifle with 30+ round mags that is a shoulder mounted weapon.....

I like Ligget's idea to make PCC users at an IDPA Match limited to 10 rounds and start with a trench coat for concealment, but with a loaded gun without a round in the chamber, their start position is with hands relaxed at their sides, and not allow suppressors.....:)
 

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So you dont know how to sort the results by division instead of looking at the overall. Got it.

By definition, a SBR is a rifle with a barrel shorter than 16.0 inches.
 

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SBR vs. PCC

So you dont know how to sort the results by division instead of looking at the overall. Got it.

By definition, a SBR is a rifle with a barrel shorter than 16.0 inches.
Yup,

A Pistol Caliber Carbine is not a SBR. An SBR is not a PCC!

There are numerous distinctions including ammunition and SBR licensing/tax stamp in some neighborhoods!

Smiles,
 

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SOME PCCs are SBRs, but rare, due to regulations. I only know a couple of guys who have them, and they shoot their full size guns instead because they handle batter.
This is somewhat true. When I shoot our PCC match I'm usually the only one with an SBR. If I were really trying to be in first place all the time I would build one that's a little heavier out front. But the length and weight of the barrel is only a small part of the equation. Tac com makes a barrel that is effectively only 5.25" with an aluminum shroud pinned to bring it to a legal 16". A friends using this barrel feels and swings very much like my SBR which has an 8" barrel. My problem with my SBR is I shoot 3-gun and Rifle matches much more frequently and that rifle is much heavier. Im constantly over swinging my SBR during transitions due to its lightness.
 

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Discussion Starter #59
How to sort by divsion on Practiscore....

So you dont know how to sort the results by division instead of looking at the overall. Got it.
I do know how to sort on Practiscore….so you made an incorrect assumption.

My premise is that a "shoulder fired weapon" should not be used in a pistol match.....although a PCC is not by legal definition a "SBR," for all intents and purposed, it is a short barreled rifle.....

Although others have no issues with people using PCC's at a pistol match, right or wrong, I do not want to see them at a pistol match..... A PCC has many advantages to shoot fast and accurately versus a pistol, which is why many are using the PCC.....

There are those that think shooting a PCC at a pistol match is fine....but I disagree and think shoulder fired weapons should compete in a rifle match....:(
 

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Well the bottom line is your opinion doesn't matter and the cat is already out of the bag.

Also a PCC is not a short barreled rifle, so you can keep trying to say it is but it just makes you sound silly. The majority of people at matches with PCCs have 16 inch barrels with 2-3 inches of muzzle brake on top of that. Some have 14 inch barrels with a welded on muzzle brake. Still not an SBR.
 
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