[eljay45]

I have heard of shooters putting something in the front seam of their vest so that it sweeps out of the way when drawing . Welding rod was even mentioned. what works best? Is it legal for IDPA? Forgive my ignorance, I compete in Ohio where there is no concealed carry.So our matches are conducted without the concealment garment

 

[PK]

Todd Jarrett mentioned something like this in his class. He also said drawstrings in the back of the vest work. Another trick is to use wire inside the seam of a pants pocket to hold it open making retaining the mag easier. All this is IDPA legal, but be prepared for call of "gamer" and being branded as "not tacticly correct"(whatever the hell that means) by people who are envious of your ingenuity.

 

[fremont]

Ingenious, maybe....but, is it keeping with the spirit of IDPA, which, to me, is paraphrased as "Would you really do [this*] on an everyday, in-your-normal-life basis?"

* "This" can mean wiring your vest open, carrying Safariland Comp-styled speedloaders, keeping welding rods in various pockets, etc.

I think this is a leading reason why IDPA will continue to soar in popularity, in general, while many dedicated IPSC'ers will loath it even more--its simplicity (and things like Failure To Do Right penalties) defeats their incessant attempts to find edges in the name of gamesmanship.

Read the IDPA rulebook: Over and over it says that the goal is to have the match determined by shooting abilities, not sleights-of-hand that just happen to fall within a broad reading of the technical rules.

 

[eljay45]

PK, I know what you mean about being called "gamer" I love to shoot IDPA, but it is a game or sport just like baseball.
I feel that anyone that plays IDPA or any other shooting game and thinks they are getting good tactical gunfighting training is making a serious mistake. I shoot IDPA by the rules but I shoot to win, not to train

 

[Ricky T]

Any of the above gadgets in your vest pocket work just fine. I also sometimes put keys or pepper spray in the right hand pocket to help the vest or jacket open up faster. I don't consider it cheating or gaming. All the firearms instructors teach these things in their classes, that's including Tom Givens, Jim Higginbotham and Ken Hackathorn. It's what people do in real life.

 

[Joe D]

Ricky T did not mention his pneumatic holster, hydraulic mag pouches, laser target finder, magnetic belt buckle to catch mags, spring loaded vest and pants pockets that look like basketball hoops if the buckle misses. Wait until you see his antigravity knee pads he is wearing to the Nationals.

 

[PK]

Originally posted by fremont:
I think this is a leading reason why IDPA will continue to soar in popularity, in general, while many dedicated IPSC'ers will loath it even more--its simplicity (and things like Failure To Do Right penalties) defeats their incessant attempts to find edges in the name of gamesmanship.

Actually, I find more IDPA shooters who have a beef with IPSC. For instance, I didn't bring IPSC into this equation.

As for finding edges in the name of gamesmanship, it's been done. I don't normally shoot it out with six BGs in real life. Heck, I'm not even old enough to hold a CCW(18), does that mean I can't shoot? Look at Team Triton. Ernest Langdon couldn't have won IDPA nationals with an SSP gun if he hadn't studied the rule book and used every advantage in there. He won not because he's and awsome shooter(he is, but I know there were many others at his level and possibly above at nationals) but because he knew the game better than the others. Part of competeing in any sport is using the rules to your advantage. I did so in golf, I do so in USPSA and will do so in IDPA when I start shooting it this winter. They can say gamer all they want, I will wear the label proudly. What it means is that I took the time to look for the advantage when they won't cause of stubborn/laziness.

 

[John Forsyth]

I have heard of all those things being used. I use an empty magazine in my right vest pocket. Works fine. I do not pay any attention to the whiners, its on both sides of the IDPA vs IPSC debate, gamers vs purists.

------------------
John

"And by the way, Mr. Speaker, The Second Amendment is not for killing ducks and leaving Huey and Dewey and Louie without an aunt and uncle. It is for hunting politicians like (in) Grozney and in 1776, when they take your independence away".
Robert K. Dornen, U.S. Congressman. 1995

 

[Electric_Armadillo]

Concerning your concelment garment, there are other reasons to add material to a loose shirt. I've sewn denim patches on mine right over the gun and mag pouch to prevent the shirt from laying on top of the gun and printing. It also assists in helping the shirt swipe away from the gun without bunching up.

In a place like Ohio, printing could land you in court as the next test case for Ohio's screwed up carry law. (basically you need to prove need in court after you get arrested). Guilty until proven innocent in this case.

------------------
-Electric Armadillo-

 

[smoney]

I find it easiest to just throw your "top off" mag in that pocket, i also keep a few loose rounds there, just in case i need them. a lot easier than the welding rods, or other methods.

yes, i am a gamer, still have gotten a few penalties for it, those who know rules of the game win the game. like where to dump rounds there are places that are tactically correct, and gamer friendly. find those places, the thinkers prosper in both sports! ipsc/uspsa just developes your cognitive ability quicker due to the greater creativity.

------------------
Any gun will do if You will do.

 

[Scooter]

Does anyone know why the IDPA rules don't allow a mag to go in a shirt pocket on a tactical reload?

 

[Ricky T]

Originally posted by Scooter:
Does anyone know why the IDPA rules don't allow a mag to go in a shirt pocket on a tactical reload?

I was told that the mag could fall out of the pocket during the rest of the stage. Actually I tried to put a mag in the shirt pocket, while it didn't fall out, it almost and I had to make conscious effort to control it.

 

[vincent]

Scooter,

First I heard the new rule covers all chest high pockets shirt, vest or otherwise.

Second I heard a rumor that this was added since one or more shooters were suspected of "ghost loading" at major matches. If your not familiar with the term, a "ghost load" is the practice of using a high capacity magazine in the pistol and stashing a partially loaded mag in the target pocket. During the scenario the shooter simply fakes the reload - usually VERY quickly. In a high pocket it is easier to keep the reload motions completely blocked from the RO especially if performed close to the body.

Again this is only a rumor but I haven't heard any good explanation for this rule change. I don't think it is because the mag could fall out. Personally I've seen many mags fall out when shooters try to stash them in their waistband than from chest pockets and tac-loading to the waistband is still allowed.

If anyone has "the word" from headquarters I would be interested in hearing it.

 

[eljay45]

I thought that if your mag fell out of your pocket after the reload it was ok to leave it behind as long as you had made an honest effort to put it in a pocket

 

[Ricky T]

If a loaded mag is dropped at anytime other than malfunction clearing, you must pick it up or incur a 3 second procedural.

[This message has been edited by Ricky T (edited 09-06-2001).]

 

[John Forsyth]

Originally posted by Ricky T:
If a loaded mag is dropped at anytime other than malfunction clearing, you must pick it up or incur a 3 second procedural.

I have to disagree with you Ricky.

Per IDPA rules (new green book),
Failure to do a tactical re-load when specified. If the competitor makes an honest attempt to retain the partial magazine and it falls from the competitor’s pocket or pouch after he/she has begun to move to another firing point, no penalty should be assessed.

I see no reason to penalize someone for trying to do it right.

------------------
John

"And by the way, Mr. Speaker, The Second Amendment is not for killing ducks and leaving Huey and Dewey and Louie without an aunt and uncle. It is for hunting politicians like (in) Grozney and in 1776, when they take your independence away".
Robert K. Dornen, U.S. Congressman. 1995

 

[HeadHunter]

I agree with both Ricky and John. No penalty for dropping the mag as long as they pick it up.

 

[JoeMc]

John is right. If there is an honest attempt to retain the mag and it falls out, then there is no penalty.

 

[JiminCA]

So a guy has a mag pop out of his pocket and it's forgiven because he "tried"? Pretty darned subjective IMO.

I also "try" to hit the targets. How about scoring me higher because I was "trying" after all. Maybe the RO can judge the sincerity of my intent to hit the targets. Or how about letting me rerun the stage because my gun jammed - I was trying. How stupid. Stuff happens. If I have a penalty, maybe next time I'll be more careful to prevent the accident. I don't agree with this particular rule at all as it sends the wrong message. Thanks for point it out, but geez......makes no sense to me.

[This message has been edited by JiminCA (edited 09-11-2001).]

 

[Ricky T]

John Forsyth:
You are so right, I was wrong. I guess I'm just an overzealous range Nazi looking to penalize gamers like you and Mikey.