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Discussion Starter #1
Curious if you know how many #'s your trig breaks at. I was kinda surprised that mine broke at 3#. Everyone tells me this is too light for a carry gun and to bring it to a smith to have it bumped up to at least 4#

Thoughts???
 

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Wilson Combat factory trigger jobs typically put the pull around 3 to 3.5 pounds. I read a review on a CQB compact in a magazine and the author stated that the trigger pull was a tad light for what he considered for carry. Some are comfortable with it, others are not.

My stock Protector was probably around 3 to 3.5 pounds, but I had the pull made heavier with a trigger job (target was 4 to 4.5 pounds).

It's definitely a tad heavier, and I like it like that.

Any pistolsmith should be able to simply adjust the sear spring to get the pull heavier.
 

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What everyone thinks is fun popular opinion and may even be wise (maybe not), but what matters is if the gun is how you like it or not.

Notice how many folks will claim a 4-5# trigger pull on a 1911 to make it safe for carry (trigger pull don't mean nothin' for carry as you have two safeties and that trigger isn't goin' nowheres during CARRY that another 1-2#s will change). "Carry" is not the issue. What is critical is the trigger pull to your comfort level during stress and deployment of the pistol.

Notice guys will often use a hunting rifle at home to check bumps in the night and have a light trigger on it because it is a "hunting" rifle. Carry isn't the issue, or hunting, but how you can handle it during stress.

I had a gun with a 3.5# pull. I handled another 1911 with a pull that felt lighter. We put both on the scales. The other gun was 5#s. The difference was how crisp the trigger was and an outstanding trigger can make extra poundage seem invisible. To me, 3.5 #s and some squish seemed harder to make the hammer drop than 5 #s with a beautiful hair break.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
well I do feel comfortable with a 3# pull. It hasn't bothered me but my LEO friend who carries a CQB as well had his bumped up to a 4.5# trig pull and I can feel the difference big time. For him he said its just another saftey precaution. He holds suspects at gunpoint a lot so for him its worth it to up the #'s.

He said for me being a law abiding armed cit. its probably ok. We will most likely not be holding someone at gunpoint for a long time. If anything went south we'd be drawing and firing and seeking cover. He said training / brain is your saftey.

He's not sure how it would look in civil court though... lawyers love to do anything to make you look guilty, etc...

thoughts?
 

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ol1911 said:
well I do feel comfortable with a 3# pull. It hasn't bothered me but my LEO friend who carries a CQB as well had his bumped up to a 4.5# trig pull and I can feel the difference big time. For him he said its just another saftey precaution. He holds suspects at gunpoint a lot so for him its worth it to up the #'s.

He said for me being a law abiding armed cit. its probably ok. We will most likely not be holding someone at gunpoint for a long time. If anything went south we'd be drawing and firing and seeking cover. He said training / brain is your saftey.

He's not sure how it would look in civil court though... lawyers love to do anything to make you look guilty, etc...

thoughts?
JMHO, but if your LEO friend is holding someone at gunpoint I sure hope his/her finger is NOT on the trigger regardless of how heavy/light the trigger pull is.

My training, although not as extensive as an LEO, tells me to keep my finger out of the trigger guard unless I intend to pull the trigger.

I could be wrong and would be curios to know what others think as well.

Stay safe.
 

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Buckpasser said:
My training, although not as extensive as an LEO, tells me to keep my finger out of the trigger guard unless I intend to pull the trigger.
I was thinking the exact same thing.

I'm very comfortable with my trigger pull. I don't think there should be any kind of standard on the pull, I think that you just need to be comfortable with the poundage whether it's 3 or 5 or whatever you happen to like.
 

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We don't hold people at gunpoint, so even that does not come into play, assuming I feel my finger needs to be on the trigger. We aren't LEOs either. Holding them at gunpoint means remaining in proximity to a person who is not there to tell me Merry Christmas. Either they are incapacitated, flee, or I flee (while calling 911 to meet with cops), but DNS has no wish to hang with the bad guys.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
I'm comfortable with 3# and I can get some very accurate shots of very quick with that trig set up... but my LEO friend was saying stuff about "startle response" etc... and pressing the trig by accident because you think something is going to happen, etc...

I'm not going to worry about it. I know I read everywhere that 3# is dangerous for carry but... if I practice/train a lot with it then the real saftey is your head.
 

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I don't mean to get anybody 'riled up' and I'm not trying to be mean. These are simply some of my opinions based on a lifetime of shooting, 22 years of military service in the Infantry, SF, and now as a medical puke, having a carry permit in 4 states, and Handgun I and II at Thunder Ranch. I usually just read these threads, but today I'm driven to actually opine.

1. The trigger is the KEY to accuracy. 3 lbs, 4lbs, 5lbs. It doesn't matter as long as it's crisp and you are comfortable with it. Remember, its supposed to suprise you when it goes off. Above all else, you've got to be accurate. Every stray round has a lawyer attached to it.

2. Heavier pull doesn't make anything safer. Using a heavy trigger in case of 'startle response' or 'stress' is crap. All it does is make for less accurate shooting, which is more dangerous for you and bystanders. Everyone knows what kind of marksman a 10lb NY trigger produces in that city.

3. The safety consists of two items. Your brain and your index finger. Not trigger weight and mechanical gadgets.

4. When you are ready to shoot, put your finger on the trigger. If you are not ready to shoot, KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER.

5. If you don't trust yourself to get it right when you are under pressure, and need tricks with your trigger or gadgets on your pistol to make you feel safer or better, you don't need to be carrying a gun. You need to put yours in the nightstand or gun safe and leave it there except for trips to the range. Get a can of mace/pepper spray to carry.

6. If you are a civilian carrying concealed, it's imperative to get professional training. I never knew how much of a boob I was until my first trip to Thunder Ranch, and its not like I just fell off the turnip truck. You owe it to yourself, your family, and your fellow citizens to be as professional as humanly possible when you strap on your gun and walk out that door. Money is not an excuse. Everyone who can afford a Wilson pistol can spend 3-5 days at Gunsite, LFI, Thunder Ranch, or one of the other places.

7. Practice, practice, practice.

Anybody have anything to add?
 

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The trigger finger should be off the trigger until you've made a conscious decison to shoot.

I had an interesting piece of advice given me during the recent GAS match at Gunsite. I was clearing a house w/my Wilson Protector, moving w/my finger off the trigger. Imagine my surprise when, during the after-action critique, the judge told me that I should have engaged the thumb safety while moving, so if somebody jumped out w/o a weapon I wouldn't shoot them, and if I had to wrestle/fight hands-on w/them, they wouldn't just have to pull the trigger to shoot me if they came up w/the gun.

I don't think he would have been happy had I voiced my thoughts ("So what should people with Glocks do, unload?") but I'd already blasted a guy for pointing a (black-gloved) finger at me at another stage, so I wasn't in the running for match winner. I was surprised to have come in tenth.
 

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I don't know about the aspect about making a conscious decision before shooting. It may be necessary for a reactionary shot that isn't so much a conscious decision at the moment of the pull. You may have made the decision you will shoot if the bad guy does X, but when the time comes, it may not be a conscious action on your part.

As for the judge at Gunsite, he probably would have liked a heavier trigger pull too. If you ride the thumb safety as I do, you can have the same reaction and disengage the safety and pull the trigger at the same impulse. So the trigger finger alone outside the trigger guard isn't enough with the thumb safety on. I would contend your finger would have to be off and below the the thumb safety.

After nearly 100K of shooting in the last few years (based on ammo counts), trigger break isn't a surprise anymore except when a new gun...and especially the first time or two with a Ruger DA/SA long about the 2nd shot is usually a pretty good surprise, but that goes away after a few repititions.
 

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Andy-
Which stage was that?

There seems to be a shift in the doctrine these days. Traditional Gunsite teaching was sights off, safety on. The theory, as I recall, was that in the time it takes you to bring the sights back on the target, you can snick off the safety. Shooting high thumb, I've always found this to be true. It was certainly true at the NTI this year. After a particularly stressful engagement at the end of a difficult scenario, immediately after one had located the last missing family member, they had an armed upper torso target wearing a badge on a chain around the neck appear around a corner. The safety did not slow me down at all.
Some are now teaching that the safety comes off on the draw, and stays off until the engagement is over. I'm not convinced that concerns about hearing the safety clicking are valid. If it isn't coming off untill I have a target, then I suspect I'll either be shooting or talking, both of which will be a greater target indicator than the sound of the safety. OTOH, if I was carrying a DA/SA pistol, I probably would not want to decock after every engagement.
 

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"6. If you are a civilian carrying concealed, it's imperative to get professional training.........."

UBD, VERY well put!

"its not like I just fell off the turnip truck."

My 1st exposure to Pro Training was just like falling off the "Turnip Truck". Had to un-learn all the bad habits picked up over the years
shooting Competitive Matches and being humbled by how much there really is to know and become skilled at in the Martial Arts sense.
In this respect the last part of the Turnip Truck story is true:
"....been there ever since!"
 

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Andy, I'd just like to comment on the advice you got:
"so if somebody jumped out w/o a weapon I wouldn't shoot them, and if I had to wrestle/fight hands-on w/them, they wouldn't just have to pull the trigger to shoot me if they came up w/the gun."

First part: If your fingers not on the trigger and you don't intend to shoot him, you won't.

Second part: LEOs are paid to wrestle with suspects, regular civilians aren't, and are foolish if they try. If someone disregards verbal compliance and attempts to try to take my weapon, he'll get two quick ones in the chest. I'm not a cop or a martial artist. The subject refused to leave me alone, get out of my house or away from my wife, I feared for my life, and shot him until he stopped what he was doing.

And on a different subject, a comment about timed matches: They are great for honing your shooting skills, but may inadvertantly plant the subconscious thought that speed is the most important thing. That doen't transfer to the real world. In a match, there is no real penalty for missed shots or shooting the wrong people. In a real situation, you need to slow your butt down and "shoot 'em good, not fast" as Clint would say. Sure you need to do it expeditiously, but you don't need to shoot in the blink of an eye. Its your mission in life to look, and look, and keep looking until you see the gun or the glove. No excuses, one and only one chance to get it right. Take the time you need to make the right decision, or you may be regretting it for the rest of your life, maybe from the inside of a jail cell.
 

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a comment about timed matches: They are great for honing your shooting skills, but may inadvertantly plant the subconscious thought that speed is the most important thing. That doen't transfer to the real world. In a match, there is no real penalty for missed shots or shooting the wrong people.
A few points: Andy was speaking of the GAS match at Gunsite. GAS is the Gunsite Alumni Shoot. It isn't at all like IPSC or IDPA. It's like having 6 shoot house simulator runs in a day, under different Rangemasters. For instance, Louis Awerbuck was the RO at the first stage I shot. Speed is not the most important thing at that match; tactics are more important than speed, as is accuracy. As for penalties for non-threats, it's a stage DQ, which is significantly higher than IDPA or IPSC. The course was designed to make target ID difficult. 89% of the shooters zeroed at least one stage. Of course, were you to approach realism in a match, once everyone saw the penalty for shooting a non-threat they'd quit.
 

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Man, TB, that sounds like a tough one (and a rush). Maybe, in order to emphasize why we do all this training, they should DQ you for the whole match if you shoot a non-threat. It's that important, don't you think? We need to train as we fight, not train to just what's fun. In the match, do they induce malfunctions, make you shoot with your weak hand, make you clear a malfunction with your weak hand, shoot from the ground, shoot from the ground with your weak hand, etc. That's the stuff I really hate, and that's the stuff I need to practice.

Steve, TX, formerly NC.
 

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They don't induce malfunctions. They did have a stage where your strong hand was disabled 1/3 of the way into it, and you completed it with your weak hand. I suspect if you had a malfunction while shooting weak hand you'd get to clear it weak hand. There were places where going to kneeling or prone allowed better shots or better use of cover. It was a rush.
While I agree a match DQ is a reasonable penalty for hitting a no shoot, if that were the penalty I wouldn't design the course to make target ID so hard.
We should probably start a thread in Tactics or Competition if we are going to discuss this further, rather than drift this thread any more off course.
 

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Hi, Tim! It was that very stage you mentioned where we had to switch to the weak hand. The only time I ever used the safety after the first bad guy was when I had to reload w/h. I train w/both Glocks (issued duty gun) and 1911s. To simplify muscle/brain memory, I leave the safety off the 1911, a la Glock wundertupper. I also shoot high thumb.

IIRC in that scenario, you heard your family member screaming for help and shots fired. AFTER engaging one armed adversary with my firearm, searching room-room for more possibly/likely armed bad guys is not a circumstance where I would have any safeties (other than my brain and trigger-finger outside of the triggerguard and alongside the frame) engaged.

It doesn't make sense (to me, at least) to apply the safety on any firearm deployed in an emergency CQB situation unless one feels that the likelihood of having to use it immediately has passed. In that case, it should then be safed, holstered, or slung. If one is "correct" by just taking his trigger-finger out of the trigger guard after a shooting engagement that has not conclusively ended while using a Glock, DA revolver, or SA/DA pistol, then why not with a 1911?

Good hearing from you!

Regards,

Andy.
 
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