[Seth]

I just read a post and it got me thinking about an incident that occured to me on my last trip to Arizona. I had (and still have)a Utah CCW permit with Reciprocity to Arizona at this time, and in driving up through Kingman I pulled off the freeway there and into town looking for a place to buy diapers and bread for our lunch break. After getting back on the road from the store to a park there I evedently, but unknowingly, exceeded the speed limit there and a policeman pulled me over. Having a gun in a smartcarry on my person at the time I kept my hands on "11 & 1" after rolling down my window before the policeman approached. The fisrt thing the officer said was that he was not going to give me a ticket. This made me feel better but I still kept my hand on the wheel and I asked what was the problem.. the normal pleasantries. He informed me of what I had done and asked for my Drivers information. I kept my hands on the wheel and told the officer that I had a concealed permit and was carrying a weapon, he asked me where I was carring it and I said, "under my belt buckle". He then said that he would need to get that from me. He had me exit the car and at seeing where it was said it ws ok where it was but for me not to have my hands in my pockets. I got out my license and ccw permit and it went on fromt there...
The question I want to ask is ... Does it state anywhere in some legislature or somewhere in your different and varrious States that you have a right to disarm someone that is a CCW holder?
Durring this time my thoughts were going on Why does he have to disarm me??? I let him know I had a gun and a CCW permit (this is a open carry state!!!!), so why is he asking for my gun now????... type of thoughts. Doesn't he know the Grief I went throught to get this thing??
Thinking back I figure that if I had gotten out my wallet before he got to my car and had been holding it in plain view on the steering wheel I could have gotten out the CCW and my license and handed it to him and he might not have asked for the Gun seeing the permit first off, but then again maybe not.
FYI I was planning on doing as he asked but those were the things I was thinking about.
How would some of you handled that situation from either point of view?

Thanks
Seth

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Philippians 4:8-9 Whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; …think on these things.

 

[shane45-1911]

Well, ID's can be faked, or stolen. Now add an out-of-state license plate into the equation. Throw in a gun for added fun...

I don't see the harm in what occured. The officer was concerned with his own safety, and until ID checked out, I believe that no foul was committed. Cops die every month during "routine" traffic stops.

[This message has been edited by shane45-1911 (edited 08-24-2001).]

 

[Ken Neal]

First hand experience tells me that such a small thing as a traffic ticket can set people off. The appliction for a CCW or CHL does not have any type of pshchological test included. The license are issued based on criminal history and not mental stability. I have disarmed other officers and civilians if "I" feel the need to do so.

What would happen if you refused to give up your gun?

I'm not trying to stir anything up or start an argument. But I dont have to trust anyone that I stop unitl "I" have decided that I can.

 

[Powderman]

As for disarming citizens, it is definitely an officer safety issue, and nothing else. If I perform a traffic stop, a Terry stop, or any other contact with an armed citizen, you can bet that I will have control of that firearm until our contact is over. First rule of police work--go home at the end of your shift.

 

[BillD]

How about the citizen's safety? A hell of a lot more people get accidentally shot by cops than they do by CCW holders. Maybe we should trade guns. I will hold his and he can hold mine. Jesus H. Christ, I haven't done anything to him and I informed him of my gun and my permit. He doesn't have any more right to disarm me than I do to disarm him. I haven't broken any laws.

I personally will not tell anyone I have a concealed weapon unless it is the law or they are gonna see it when I get out of the vehicle, if it goes that far.

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"What most of these people need is a good slap upside the head. What I don't need is any more lawsuits." John "The Tooz" Matusak

 

[Seth]

I believe I understand the cops point of view in that they should go home safe that evening but My question was if there was a law on the books that allows them to disarm a citizen do so or if it is just a right that has been informally adopted into the system.
As I stated above I had planned on complying with the officer but if I had not planned on complying I would not have told him that I carried.

By the way I waited for 10 minutes outside my car with 3 kids sweltering in the back for the information to come through from my driving information.. It didn't come through but he said that I could go anyway that he felt everything was ok.


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Philippians 4:8-9 Whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; …think on these things.

 

[Raspy]

<><> Ken Neal, I beg to differ with you sir. There are some counties in Kalif. that do require a phycological evaluation, that the applicant has to pay for. One that comes to mind is Humbolt.

Raspy

[This message has been edited by raspy (edited 08-26-2001).]

 

[shane45-1911]

Originally posted by BillD:
He doesn't have any more right to disarm me than I do to disarm him. I haven't broken any laws.

Sorry Bill, but he DOES have the right to disarm you. If he has stopped you, there was a reason for it. If there is a reason, then there is probable cause. If there is probable cause, then until the severity of the situation is determined, your weapon will be temporarily removed.

I'm not saying this is perfect logic, but its the best we have to keep cops coming home safe at night. Your minor "inconvenience" does not mean that any of your rights are being violated. If you can't afford to be without the presence of your gun for 5 -10 minutes in the presence of a LEO, don't break any laws and you'll never have to worry about it.

 

[Buickguy]

Originally posted by Seth:
My question was if there was a law on the books that allows them to disarm a citizen do so or if it is just a right that has been informally adopted into the system.

Michigan's new CCW law states that a CCW holder must tell/inform an officer that he has a weapon and does have a CCW permit. The permit must be shown along with valid driver's licence or state ID. The law also has written in it that a LEO may take the weapon during a stop if the LEO feels that need to do so. The law goes on to state that the weapon must be returned at the end of the stop unless there is something amiss, like no ID or CCW permit on your person, then the weapon may be seized.
For the record, I am not a LEO, do not play one on TV, nor attempt to impersonate one for fun and/or profit.


[This message has been edited by Buickguy (edited 08-24-2001).]

 

[Patrickl]

Originally posted by BillD:
How about the citizen's safety? A hell of a lot more people get accidentally shot by cops than they do by CCW holders. Maybe we should trade guns. I will hold his and he can hold mine. Jesus H. Christ, I haven't done anything to him and I informed him of my gun and my permit. He doesn't have any more right to disarm me than I do to disarm him. I haven't broken any laws.

I personally will not tell anyone I have a concealed weapon unless it is the law or they are gonna see it when I get out of the vehicle, if it goes that far.

OK Bill, How many? Yes, that's right, how many innocent citizens in the United States have been accidentally killed or were intentionally shot but it turned out they were unarmed by Peace Officers in the United States in the last ten years? What is the average per year? Next, how many Peace Officers do citizens a year kill?

I have remained silent on this crud about all the claims of the egregious number of citizens killed by Peace Officers in the United States per year until now. I am going to give you a month to do some real scholarly research and get the actual numbers.

I am going to give you a clue. You won’t like the real numbers because they will not support the horse manure espoused by many radical 2nd Amendment advocates. This does not mean that I do not support the 2nd Amendment it only means that if one is going to use an argument and relies only on what someone else has told them without confirming the actual numbers they only end up looking like an ass as does the cause they support.

I am going to give you another clue. I know the actual numbers and I can tell you that if we do a comparison on a per capita basis a Peace Officer is well over three thousand times more likely to be killed by a citizen than a citizen is to be killed by a Peace Officer. If you do a comparison on just the raw number of actual deaths then a Peace Officer still has a 350% better chance of dying at the hands of a citizen than does a citizen at the hands of a Peace Officer.

As for your argument that a Peace Officer has no right to disarm you then you better do some more research into Heaven only knows how many case decisions by the courts that give peace officers the right to disarm you for their own protection. Also keep in mind that even when you are stopped just for a minor traffic violation you are under arrest in most states and if you are under arrest your weapon can be seized. Or are you advocating that I let the CCW permit holder that just killed your entire family take his gun to jail with him?

 

[BillD]

Pat,
You old so and so

. Tell you what, you do the efing research. I have a job and don't have time. And I didn't say citizens, I said CCW holders. I have been to many IDPA shoots, concealed carry shoots and a couple of training courses. The policemen I have seen at these in general have terrible gunhandling skills. Some are good but I have seen police shoot the ground 2 feet in front of them during the draw, drop the gun while trying to reload, have a malfunction and look down the barrel. And you want me to turn my gun over to this guy? No. You get on your highhorse all you want. You want a safe job, don't carry a gun. You want to help people, volunteer for the homeless. Nobody drafted you into the police dept. It's a dirty, dangerous, unappreciated profession. You don't like the job or the danger, sell cars or insurance.
And as far as me looking like an ass, you been talking to my wife?
You have a real good day now, hear?

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"What most of these people need is a good slap upside the head. What I don't need is any more lawsuits." John "The Tooz" Matusak

 

[Seth]

Buickguy, thanks for the information on MI. Here in Utah and also Arizona (I believe) you must notify of a concealed gun and show CCW but I had not seen any legislature where they can take your weapon durring the "traffic stop" or in a different scenario of say a check point where they are stopping all cars checking for drunks drivers. In the second scenario I have done no wrong they are just are stopping everyone.. can you take my gun then?

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Philippians 4:8-9 Whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; …think on these things.

 

[Patrickl]

Originally posted by BillD:
Pat,
You old so and so

. Tell you what, you do the efing research. I have a job and don't have time. And I didn't say citizens, I said CCW holders. I have been to many IDPA shoots, concealed carry shoots and a couple of training courses. The policemen I have seen at these in general have terrible gunhandling skills. Some are good but I have seen police shoot the ground 2 feet in front of them during the draw, drop the gun while trying to reload, have a malfunction and look down the barrel. And you want me to turn my gun over to this guy? No.

And Bill I have seen just as many so called accomplished non-law enforcement competative shooters drill themselves, amputate various parts of their bodies, and make every jackass mistake in the book, right in front of God and everyone. Sorry but this argument doesn't hold any water Bill. So, I guess I have to ask. You want me to trust a person with a gun, CCW or not who does that??

Funny how perspective changes depending on what side of the fence one sits on?

 

[jpwright]

In Texas, they wrote surrender of your concealed weapon into the law. If you are licensed and carrying, you have to show the license. If asked to surrender the weapon, you have to do so. If you don't, you lose the license.

So, here, it isn't a "Is this right?" issue. But I personally have no problem with it. I don't think I need the piece with a cop or two on hand, and I don't mind him/her/them having some peace of mind.


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If God didn't want us to own guns, why did He make the 1911?

 

[BillD]

Originally posted by Patrickl:
And Bill I have seen just as many so called accomplished non-law enforcement competative shooters drill themselves, amputate various parts of their bodies, and make every jackass mistake in the book, right in front of God and everyone. Sorry but this argument doesn't hold any water Bill. So, I guess I have to ask. You want me to trust a person with a gun, CCW or not who does that??

Funny how perspective changes depending on what side of the fence one sits on?

OK Pat, good point. We have established that CCW and LE can both have terrible gun handling skills. How about we both just leave our guns in our holsters and have no one handling them? That way neither CCW or LE can make a mistake. No? You mean possible LE mistakes are somehow better than possible CCW mistakes?
"You want me to trust a person with a gun, CCW or not who does that??"
Then why in the hell should I trust an LE with MY gun?
Most LE wouldn't consider giving up their weapon. But you think a CCW should give up his at anytime a LE wants him to. Yes it is a different perspective. Talk about not holding water, Pat.

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"What most of these people need is a good slap upside the head. What I don't need is any more lawsuits." John "The Tooz" Matusak

[This message has been edited by BillD (edited 08-24-2001).]

[This message has been edited by BillD (edited 08-24-2001).]

 

[h4444]

Hey, the way I look at it is,,,,if a LEO wants to disarm me,,,,that's fine as long as s/he still has their firearm and can safely manage any situation,,,,that's cool with me.

Hell, if anything dangerous were to happen at right after disarming me, they're still armed.

That officer will be a faster draw than me from my Uncle Mike's fanny pack,,,,,or my IWB holster,,,,or where ever else I've got my gun, since it must be concealed.

Hey, I'm safe, the officer is safe, and the officer can get on with their business.

Thanks,
H4444

 

[Wingshooter]

I was stopped several years ago enroute to Big Bend on a camping trip. It was a case of mistaken identity, apparently a Jeep similar to mine had run off without paying for his gas. Aside from the fact that I was looking for a gas station at the time and the tank was less than 1/4 full, we had to go through the whole ordeal of making sure I wasn't the person in question. One of the early questions asked was whether or not I was armed. Of course I was, no one goes that close to the Mexican border unarmed unless they are either stupid or completely trusting in the goodwill of others. He asked that I turn over the pistol to him while we were chatting. I had no problem with this, I would have done the same in his position.

In my opinion it's no big deal. He's not a threat to me, he didn't run off and record the serial # of my BHP so it would be registered in some huge secret database (that was probably done when I bought the pistol but that's another issue). I'm not in any danger and if something evil were to come up (which is doubtful in my opinion) not only was he wearing a 1911, but he had a perfectly servicable BHP in his hand to remedy the situation. He was very polite, and once everything was cleared up he gave me back my pistol and sent me on my way, after a little verbal sparring about the inadequacies of 9mm vs 45 ACP (I have since come to his way of thinking...obviously, or I wouldn't be on this board now). All in all I left with a very good impression of his agency.

Although I'm not involved in law enforcement, I've been a Paramedic almost 10 years and I experience first hand just how people treat Police officers (as well as fireman and paramedics). You think LEO's have it bad? Atleast they have the opportunity to shoot back, all I have is a hand held radio during the day and a Mag Light at night (although I have become truly proficient with the use of both). The PD is my sword and shield and I will never forget that fact. Maybe that puts me on the inner circle that thinks there is nothing wrong with LEOs asking to hold your firearm during a stop. If so I don't apologize for it. Hell, I've probably disarmed almost as many people as LEOs have. If you think some CCW and LEOs have exhibited poor weapon handling skills, you should see how a 15 y/o deviant handles a weapon (apparently Eddie the Eagle hasn't made it to this particular demographic).

I guess I'm trying to say that with so much to worry about in this world, why let something so minor keep you up at night... Just because you're a responsible individual who means no harm, you are quickly becoming the exception to the rule as I go about my work on a day to day basis. You should be proud of that fact.

 

[Raspy]

<><> I would have no problem handing over my weapon to an LEO. You don't know if someone with a vehicle fitting your discription has just commited a felony. After all he is just looking out for his own well being. I think it would keep a situation from becoming ugly. I am not an LEO.

Raspy

[This message has been edited by raspy (edited 08-25-2001).]

 

[Highspeed]

Originally posted by shane45-1911:
If you can't afford to be without the presence of your gun for 5 -10 minutes in the presence of a LEO, don't break any laws and you'll never have to worry about it.

Hi Shane. You must realize that Bill is talking about the principle of the thing. It has nothing to do with his pistol being gone for 5 minutes--it does have to do with someone else demanding he hand it over.

As a non leo, I gotta agree with Bill's point of view, but at the risk of sounding like a wishy washy puss, I can see the leo's point, too, if I consider it objectively. I don't like it, but I can see it.

 

[shane45-1911]

Originally posted by Highspeed:
You must realize that Bill is talking about the principle of the thing

Highspeed,
I do understand the principle. Like I stated earlier, don't break any laws and you have nothing to worry about. As Patrick also correctly stated, you are technically under arrest for any moving violation at the time you are pulled over, as well. No LEO is going to take away your gun for NO reason. Give him a reason (ANY reason, ie speeding) and he will.

Don't break any laws = keep your gun.

I'm not on top of my soap box - I have got a speeding ticket or three myself - but it's my own fault! If you give a cop a reason to pull you over, be damn sure he will. Only stupid (or dead) cops let you keep a gun on your person until ID/license plate checks are done. Maybe not perfect - but what would you suggest a cop do?