[lawdog1834]

Here is what happened you Range Officers for IPSC tell me the deal.. I am a police officer, retired military who uses IPSC as an additonal training source. I was on a stage and refused to start with my hans above my head, obvious reasons. The RO said to put them over my head. I said NO just give me a procedual.. He DQed me and sent me packing. Yes he is a A^*S^*&. Is there any reason this was done ? I might go back and shoot there. I have been looking for a IPDA club but the nearest one is a good drive

 

[eljay45]

So why didn't you just start with your hands above your head? If you have some medical reason that's fine, if not I guess the RO just thought you weren't going to play nice with all the other boys and girls. DQ does seem a little stiff though

 

[walangkatapat]

May be the RO thought that you were being unsportsmanlike:

10.4 Match Disqualification - Unsportsmanlike Conduct

10.4.1 Disqualification from the competition will be invoked in the event of gross or repeated unsportsmanlike behaviour. The Range Master or Match Director must be notified immediately.

10.4.3 Repeated contravention of the rules of the range or stage briefing will be considered as unsportsmanlike conduct.



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"Gun Control is Only to Protect Those in Power."

 

[PK]

That falls neatly under the Unsportsmanlike Conduct rule. IMO, you were in the wrong. If the stage procedure called for starting with your hands above head, than that's where you start. Please explain your "obvious reasons". I see absouloutly no non-medical reason to violate the rules in this manner.

 

[Silver Surfer]

Lawdog, If it were real, someone had the drop on you and told you "put your hands up" tell me you would'nt? Remember its only a game.
It's better to live to fight another day.

 

[Chico]

Lawdog,
It's a game! Games are supposed to be fun!!What was your attitude when a traffic offense suspect refused to follow your directions? The RO is responsible for safety, yours as well as the other competitors. If you are unable or unwilling to follow basic instructions, then can you be trusted to follow safety instructions/procedures?
As a NRA Range Safety Officer I view your disagreement (as you described it) with the RO as a safety issue as opposed to a "sporting behavior" issue.
In IDPA there will be stages REQUIRING you to engage the targets with, begin with gun in weak hand only, gun in brief case, gun in drawer, gun on table, roll out of bed & retrieve gun on table, concealed, not concealed, & situations other than hands relaxed at sides. If you PURPOSELY did not comply with the stage scenario for any reason other than disability, then at the very least I would give you a 20-second failure-to-do-right penalty.

 

[Rosco Benson]

If you don't want to start in a surrender position, just pretend your hat was about to blow off.

Seriously though, if the RO insisted on a "hands up" start, just start with your hands up and, on the start sigmal, lower your hands to your preferred position, pause a moment to collect yourself, and then draw and shoot the course-of-fire.

Rosco

 

[Recon]

Lawdog,
Sounds like you were the one in the wrong not the RO. I don't have a clue what your obvious reason was. I've been an LEO for 12 years and in the Corps before that. If you take any survival course they will have you do drills from that exact same position. I've shoot IPSC, IPDA and a shotload of tac matches you start in all kinds of positions.
If it were me I go back and apoligize to the RO for being a jackass and then shoot and have fun! This is a game it teaches gunhandling not tactics enjoy it or stay home!

 

[kbear38S]

Originally posted by lawdog1834:
I have been looking for a IPDA club but the nearest one is a good drive

The RO is not allowed to start a shooter until the shooter has assumed the start position. Given that you refused to assume the start position, you were effectively holding up the entire squad.

I'd have to think about a DQ or not but you would have at least been told to unload and show clear and moved out for the next shooter. At minimum you would have zeroed the stage.

I don't think you'd find IDPA any more accomdating if you refuse to follow the course description. If anything, IDPA is worse.

 

[Tom Freeman]

Lawdog, why do you have a problem starting in the surrender position? If all the other shooters were doing it, why should you be allowed to not start like all the others? It’s called a start position for a reason.

I might not have DQ'ed you, but if you were a pecker about it, I would have had a chat with you before I did something as harsh as a DQ.

IDPA has a lower threshold of BS than IPSC because IPSC shooters realize it’s just a game. IDPA sometimes seems to have visions of "Tactical Training." Do this at an IDPA match, we/they might just shoot you and then feed you to the Silhouette shooters. The 50BMG shooters are too picky to eat with us handgun shooters.

We had a match a few months back where EVERY stage (6) had you start wrists above shoulders. Why, because we can. The following day, I ran an IDPA match that 3 of 5 stages started like this also. Why, because we can.

Wish I was on your side here, but I am not. Please enlighten me on your unwillingness to start wrists above shoulders. Hopefully you will change my mind. There has to be more to this than I am seeing.

Tom
AF Shooting Team

 

[John Forsyth]

Originally posted by lawdog1834:
...I was on a stage and refused to start with my hans above my head, obvious reasons....

If that is the way it starts, you have no choice unless you are physically unable to do so. I would have made you unload and show clear, move to the back of the line, and dealt with you later. That is, if I was in a good mood. Most likely, as I only run IDPA matches, I would have given you a 20 second FTDR (Failure To Do Right).



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John

"And by the way, Mr. Speaker, The Second Amendment is not for killing ducks and leaving Huey and Dewey and Louie without an aunt and uncle. It is for hunting politicians like (in) Grozney and in 1776, when they take your independence away".
Robert K. Dornen, U.S. Congressman. 1995

 

[fremont]

Ya gotta love an RO who uses the whole rulebook.....kudos to the RO for taking on a range lawyer who's trying to make an unnecessary and unreasonable point.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Apparently the "obvious reasons" for why you would not start with your hands up are not obvious. I would really like to know why you would not do it as well. You seem very bitter about the RO running a fair match. By not making you raise your hands in a manner comparable to other shooters, the RO would have been giving you a start advantage over the other shooters and that would not have been fair to them. As a police officer and former military guy, I really would have assumed that you would have been up on the rules and regulations of the competition and that after being DQ'ed, you would have taken the time to either query the RO or consult the rule book yourself. As with the legal system, ignorance of the rules or laws does not mean you can't be punished for their infraction.

 

[lawdog1834]

It was my first match with IPSC. I am retired military, and my shooting experience while vast I did not quite understand THE GAME. I was looking for training and wondered why someone would start in this position.. I asked the RO when he said do you have any questions? Yes so I asked. He said because thats the way you start. I am not a memember of UPSA or IPSC, and was just curious. I know the heat index was 104 that day and this was one of those days where 40 to 50 shooters showed up. I did not mean to offend the RO or any of you fine people, however, since then I have studied up on IPSC and will not make the same mistake twice. By the way I was not a threating or rude to the RO.

 

[pingun.45]

Lawdog, I am LEO, firearms trainer, worried about the same stuff when I started IPSC years ago, wondering if the stuff I did at the matches would, as they said in the gunrags, "get me killed".
That is pure unadulterated BS, IMHO. What will save your ass is having the confidence in your shooting skills and having the automatic response skills from shooting a lot at matches where there is some stress on courses of fire. Knowing that your stress presentation will bring your front sight right to where ever your eyes are looking is mighty comforting when you need it. It is one thing to shoot accurately, but to do it under time and do it fast/accurate translates into good training for the street.

I do however hope that when you strap on the duty belt and get your game face on that you are not worried about the start position affecting your performance on the street. Two different/separate things.

Next match go up to the RO, tell him you didnt really know how things worked and apologize. No hard feelings,etc.

However heat or no heat, you should have been able to get something worked out to where you knew what the ball game was. Been there, done that with newbies. I applaud you trying to get more trigger time, keep at it, It Will help you out at o'dark thirty. Be safe, DC

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front sight is good, front sight is good!

 

[Double Naught Spy]

More than once I have been very short with people or more easily angered after having spent too long out in the Texas sun during summertime. Overheating and lack of fluids can lead to a variety of mental inconsistencies that normally might not occur, such as being quicker to anger, more easily confused, problems with concentration, and understanding the difference between functional answers (that's just the way we do it) versus more philosophical answers and when each is appropriate. It sounds like the answer the RO gave was the functional variety but you wanted the more philosohical reasoning for why things would be done that way. Chances are, he thought he had answered your question, you thought not, and he probably got the impression you were stalling or trying to enter into some sort of debate not relative to the competition. He may have even gotten the impression that you were rejecting his direction for you to raise your hands for the start. Chances are, he was uncomfortable from the heat as well.

Funny thing about judges,range officers, umpires, and referees, they are kings (and queens) of their domains.

 

[johnnybravo]

On the firing line, the RO is the Supreme Being. Even if I'm new to a discipline (IDPA, IPSC, etc), I still count on the RO to guide me through until I learn the rules of the game. Even then, he's still The Boss on the firing line. If I have a gripe, I would take it to the Match Director between stages.

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johnnyb
A slow hit beats a fast miss

 

[angie diaz]

Yes, its true you should have started with hands up but sometimes the ROs can really be a pain. I think you should have gotten a procedural and call it a day.

 

[John Forsyth]

Procedurals are for those have a brain fade. DQ's are for unsafe gunhandling, unsportsmanlike conduct, and illegal equipment. Lawdog1834, you knew what you were doing and you were not making anyone unsafe. DQ maybe was a little harsh, but that is what was handed out.

Question, was this a club match or something a little bigger?

by angie diaz,
....ROs can really be a pain....

So can a lot of shooters angie.



------------------
John

"And by the way, Mr. Speaker, The Second Amendment is not for killing ducks and leaving Huey and Dewey and Louie without an aunt and uncle. It is for hunting politicians like (in) Grozney and in 1776, when they take your independence away".
Robert K. Dornen, U.S. Congressman. 1995

 

[angie diaz]

So can a lot of shooters angie.

So true, John. If this was a club match let the guy play and give him the produral. Thats all Iam saying but some RO's are... well unreasonable at times.
[/B][/QUOTE]