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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
The following is an email I sent to Hornady Ammo after learning that their Personal Defense ammo will not function in a Wilson:

"Re: Critical Defense .45 ACP; Wilson Combat says that this ammo will not function in their 1911's, and specifically states not to use it. They state the insert catches on the feed ramp causing a failure to feed. Are you aware of this? Do you believe it is a result of their two piece feed ramp (are there any 1911's with a one piece ramp)? I haven't purchased a 1911 yet, but had hopes of using this ammo as its carry load."

And their response:

"Richard, we were not aware of this. I will pass this on to our engineering dept. Thanks"
 

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The following is an email I sent to Hornady Ammo after learning that their Personal Defense ammo will not function in a Wilson:

"Re: Critical Defense .45 ACP; Wilson Combat says that this ammo will not function in their 1911's, and specifically states not to use it. They state the insert catches on the feed ramp causing a failure to feed. Are you aware of this? Do you believe it is a result of their two piece feed ramp (are there any 1911's with a one piece ramp)? I haven't purchased a 1911 yet, but had hopes of using this ammo as its carry load."

And their response:

"Richard, we were not aware of this. I will pass this on to our engineering dept. Thanks"
The ammo we had problems with was critical defense in 9mm. The .45 has not been released as far as I know. If it won't feed in a 9mm 1911 with a ramped barrel it certainly won't feed in .45 acp with the two piece ramp.

Thanks for your concern though. You seem very hung up on critical defense. Are you aware of any successful shootings with it?

FYI, the GI spec for a 1911 is a "two piece" ramp. Most subcalibers like 9x19, 10mm, .38 Super are shipped with a "one piece" or integral ramp to contain case head pressure on the higher pressure rounds. The "integral, one piece ramp" can compromise reliability with the larger .45 ACP bullet shape.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
WCR - Thanks. Yes, I am "hung-up" with this particular load, based upon its design and gelatin test results. In Western Washington people are almost always wearing coats, and regular JHP tend to clog with clothing, failing to expand. I don't give a hoot about the FBI penetration requirements, as I want 100% energy dump inside the target - not some poor slob across the street. As far as the feed ramps, I am completly ignorant as to designs, but am learning.

Yes, Hornady has released a .45 ACP in Critical Defense, and others as well. When (if?) I go ahead with my intended purchase of your CQB Elite, I want to know ahead of time of ANY of its limitations.
 

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WCR - Thanks. Yes, I am "hung-up" with this particular load, based upon its design and gelatin test results. In Western Washington people are almost always wearing coats, and regular JHP tend to clog with clothing, failing to expand. I don't give a hoot about the FBI penetration requirements, as I want 100% energy dump inside the target - not some poor slob across the street. As far as the feed ramps, I am completly ignorant as to designs, but am learning.

Yes, Hornady has released a .45 ACP in Critical Defense, and others as well. When (if?) I go ahead with my intended purchase of your CQB Elite, I want to know ahead of time of ANY of its limitations.
I would be very wary of any ammunition that makes great big performance claims with no street use to back it up. If you want something that will always feed and always expand consider corbon powerball in .45 ACP . Its a pretty low penetration round.
 

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If you want something that will always feed and always expand consider corbon powerball in .45 ACP . Its a pretty low penetration round.
Some interesting data from another forum:


Corbon Powerball
Previously posted by DocGKR Industry Professional
9 mm Corbon 100 gr +P PowerBall 1555 f/s from G17
BG: pen=10.9”, RD=0.60”, RW=93.9gr
4LD: pen=11.4”, RD=0.58”, RW=97.5gr
The mighty 4.7” of pen after the auto windshield was not comforting…

.40 S&W Corbon 135 gr Powerball from S&W 4006
BG: vel=1362 f/s, pen=11.6”, RD=0.65”, RW=131.4gr
4LD: vel=1359 f/s, pen=12.1”, RD=0.65”, RW=131.9gr
auto windshield: vel=1365 f/s, pen=7.9”, RD=0.61”, RW=103.6gr

.45 ACP Corbon 165 gr +P Powerball from 1911
BG: vel=1230 f/s, pen=12.1”, RD=0.70”, RW=158.8gr
4LD: vel=1267 f/s, pen=11.8”, RD=0.66”, RW=159.7gr
auto windshield: vel=1251 f/s, pen=5.5”, RD=0.73”, RW=143.5gr

"The frequent core-jacket separations and rounded leading edges of the PB
loads are a concern, as is their poor terminal performance after intermediate
barrier penetration. We were frankly unimpressed with these loads. If you
have to use Corbon handgun loads, stick with their DPX loadings of the
superb Barnes XPB all copper bullets."



Federal HST
9mm Fed 147 gr JHP HST (P9HST2) from G17:
BG: vel=1037f/s, pen=11.9”, RD=0.64”, RW=147.8gr
4 layer denim: vel=1049f/s, pen=14.7”, RD=0.54”, RW=147.5gr
auto windshield: vel=1042 f/s, pen=13.4”, RD=0.53”, RW=140.4gr

.40 S&W Fed 180 gr JHP HST (P40HST1) from S&W 4006
BG: vel=960 f/s, pen=12.6”, RD=.65”, RW=181.1gr
4 layer denim: vel=961 f/s, pen=15.6”, RD=0.62, 181.3 gr
auto windshield: vel=904 f/s, pen=15.2”, RD=0.47”, RW=180.4gr

.45 ACP Fed 230 gr +P JHP HST (P45HST1) from 1911
BG: vel=926 f/s, pen=12.6”, RD=.74”, RW=231.8gr
4 layer denim: vel=915 f/s, pen=15.4”, RD=0.67, 231.1 gr
auto windshield: vel=918 f/s, pen=19.7”, RD=0.54”, RW=228.6gr
 

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Some interesting data from another forum:


Corbon Powerball
Previously posted by DocGKR Industry Professional
9 mm Corbon 100 gr +P PowerBall 1555 f/s from G17
BG: pen=10.9”, RD=0.60”, RW=93.9gr
4LD: pen=11.4”, RD=0.58”, RW=97.5gr
The mighty 4.7” of pen after the auto windshield was not comforting…

.40 S&W Corbon 135 gr Powerball from S&W 4006
BG: vel=1362 f/s, pen=11.6”, RD=0.65”, RW=131.4gr
4LD: vel=1359 f/s, pen=12.1”, RD=0.65”, RW=131.9gr
auto windshield: vel=1365 f/s, pen=7.9”, RD=0.61”, RW=103.6gr

.45 ACP Corbon 165 gr +P Powerball from 1911
BG: vel=1230 f/s, pen=12.1”, RD=0.70”, RW=158.8gr
4LD: vel=1267 f/s, pen=11.8”, RD=0.66”, RW=159.7gr
auto windshield: vel=1251 f/s, pen=5.5”, RD=0.73”, RW=143.5gr

"The frequent core-jacket separations and rounded leading edges of the PB
loads are a concern, as is their poor terminal performance after intermediate
barrier penetration. We were frankly unimpressed with these loads. If you
have to use Corbon handgun loads, stick with their DPX loadings of the
superb Barnes XPB all copper bullets."



Federal HST
9mm Fed 147 gr JHP HST (P9HST2) from G17:
BG: vel=1037f/s, pen=11.9”, RD=0.64”, RW=147.8gr
4 layer denim: vel=1049f/s, pen=14.7”, RD=0.54”, RW=147.5gr
auto windshield: vel=1042 f/s, pen=13.4”, RD=0.53”, RW=140.4gr

.40 S&W Fed 180 gr JHP HST (P40HST1) from S&W 4006
BG: vel=960 f/s, pen=12.6”, RD=.65”, RW=181.1gr
4 layer denim: vel=961 f/s, pen=15.6”, RD=0.62, 181.3 gr
auto windshield: vel=904 f/s, pen=15.2”, RD=0.47”, RW=180.4gr

.45 ACP Fed 230 gr +P JHP HST (P45HST1) from 1911
BG: vel=926 f/s, pen=12.6”, RD=.74”, RW=231.8gr
4 layer denim: vel=915 f/s, pen=15.4”, RD=0.67, 231.1 gr
auto windshield: vel=918 f/s, pen=19.7”, RD=0.54”, RW=228.6gr
I carry DPX, but you asked for low penetration. I think Gary Roberts is a very reliable source. Thanks for the information.
 

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WCR - Thanks. Yes, I am "hung-up" with this particular load,
There are no magic bullets. What are you going to do if Hornady discontinues them (like they just announced with their Light/Heavy Magnum rifle ammunition)?

I use Golden Sabers. If I can't get them, I'll use Gold Dots; or Federal; or Remington JHPs; or Winchester JHPs; or Corbon. It just doesn't matter to me. As long as they feed, fire, and extract properly, I have no doubts that any of them are quite acceptable in a 45.

Who cares "IF" a 45 cal JHP plugs up? The 230 gr ball rounds have worked very well for a very long time. Many sources cite NO OVERPENETRATION issues, unlike with 9mm FMJ rounds. I believe there are postings on this forum reporting these findings.

Given your "hang up" on the Hornady ammo and WCRs comments WRT the 1911 design, maybe a Glock is a better choice for you? :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 · (Edited)
Thanks to all for your replies/info. I did not mean that Hornady's Critical Defense would decide if I go ahead with my Wilson purchase. I was impressed with what seemed to be a new and perhaps improved performance load. But it would also seem from what I am learning from you guys is that my presumption is premature. I am one of those who believed the teacher when she said there are no stupid questions (often to my embaressment) and to that end, I'm afraid I will continue to ask them. Please bear with me.

By the way - because of you guys stepping up and giving me info, I have dumped the thought of using the CD's - until they are much improved!

MERRY CHRISTMAS!
 

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I carry Hornady Critical Defense in my Ruger LCP. In that case, it's a case of trying to get the best performance from an arguably marginal caliber. I'm no expert, but I would submit that it may not be as important in a .45. In the latter case, I'm not as worried about penetration and expansion, even if the target is heavily clothed. Fot that reason, I use FTX, Gold Dots or Golden Saber in my 1911's.
 
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