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Discussion Starter #1
Well, first, sorry to drag up what I'm sure is a dead horse here for further beating, but I've never seen it addressed and I don't know how I'd search for it.

Second, maybe it wasn't a choice thing, and if so then that answers the question. If JMB was contracted to design a 9mm high capacity sidearm and that's what he did, then "ok then" my curiosity is satisfied.

But if JMB chose the 9mm Luger and the double stack configuration for his last military pistol design, then how come? Are there any memoirs or documents which explain why JMB "switched?" (Like Apple.:p )
 

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Browning designed what would become the BHP for a specific French military contract that never panned out. That contract specified 9mm caliber. The contract really specified alot of features that wound up in the gun, and he was forced to re-invent alot of things over again because Colt owned a bunch of his patents, so he couldn't use them for what would become the BHP. Also, he didn't finish the design of the gun; that was done after his death by Dieudonne J. Saive at FN.

http://hp35.netfirms.com/history/history.htm
 

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Discussion Starter #4
fast becoming the most popular military pistol cartridge in the world

Well, if it wasn't before 1935, it certainly was after. His gun kinda facilitated that, don't ya think? That and the Walther P38, but of course the Hi-Power came first.

But anyway, youre saying it was a marketing decision? Ammo capacity and choice of round were just JMB bowing to laws of supply and demand?
 

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CB's already covered it. I wasn't aware of the entire history, but just taking a SWAG at it.

As for JMB bowing to supply and demand, why not? He produced products that people wanted to buy and modified his designs according to their wishes. Nothing wrong with that.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
ahh... Castlebravo - thanks. I was writing a reply while you were posting. So, 9mm was a prerequisite specification, not JMB's choice. (But Buzz-Knox was right too - the popularity of 9mm was the reason the French specified it)

Not trying to disparage any pistol caliber ... just trying to know the history. I like 9mm, but I couldn't see JMB choosing it over .45, given 1930's loadings and using military ball only.
 

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Remember that the myth of the .45's magical knockdown power wasn't fully established yet. For many of that age, the 9mm was seen as just as powerful as the .45, because they were coming from Lebel cartridges and .32s.
 

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BHP making the 9mm popular?

"Well, if it wasn't before 1935, it certainly was after. His gun kinda facilitated that, don't ya think?"

No, I don't. I believe the Parabellum Luger and "Broomhandle" Mauser had already made the 9mm the most popular military pistol caliber in Europe.

Someone seems to have confused cause with effect...
 

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Discussion Starter #10
hmmm ... I didn't know the broomhandle mauser was chambered for 9mm Luger. I always thought it was 7.63 only, but I just did some searching and sure enough it was later chambered for 9mm.
Didn't know that.


But, still, my point was more that if 9mm was becoming popular by 1935 due to the Luger (and Mauser), the Browning P35 and Walther P38 are the primary weapons that saw the round through its next generation, and made it the most popular worldwide. Especially when you count clones.
 

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You have to remember that back then, the IDEA of a 13 round handgun was totally revoluntary. There were no hicap ANYTHING back then unless it was a carbine or machine gun. This p35 was STATE OF THE ART back then. the 9mm is a powerful pistol cartrage that has been around for 100 years, it was devolped in 1903 I think, while the .45ACP was devolped in 1910 or 1909.

Didnt Jeff Cooper say that people shot the 1911 for the .45 and the hipower for the design of the gun?



When you pick up a hipower, your are holding an advanced pistol design that we STILL COPY today, almost all handgun designs copy the p-35 design in some way. That in 1935, was a "hi power" design, WAY ahead of its time. JMB's last gift to mankind. A perfect legicey
 

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Thanks!! I had thought that the .45 ACP was later on in the decade.

Is that the "first 1911" blocky looking pistol chambered in?
 

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Actually, when you look at what has followed, the P-35 was far more influencial and important to the semi-automatic than his earlier 1903 and 1911 Colt designs.

The features that Browning introduced in the HiPower have become standard designs in just about every sindle semi-automatic since then. This is not detracting from the 1911, but very few other guns (ones that are not 1911 just built by someone other than Colt) use the major features, lock up, trigger systems, internals of the 1911. But most every other semi-automatic out there today uses features that were either directly taken from the p-35, or from the P-38.
 

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well, as a caliber, the .45 was developed in the mid 1800's by colt.
By 19 aught 3 it was a well developed cartridge, in a lot of different flavors for rifles as well as pistols.
my recollection is that the 9mm was developed because of the recoil issue.
blessings
 

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Recoil?
9mm P was developed because it was the BIGGEST caliber that they could get in a Luger without retooling for a larger gun overall. The .30 was already getting to be considered too small for serious military issue. Which did not keep the Swiss, Portugese and Finns from using it.

I don't see many "features" present in a BHP but not in 1911 in successor designs; except for the cam track unlocking.

It took a good deal of pressure from FN for Mr Browning to use a double column magazine. He was on record as saying they would not work until FN said they had to have one for the French project. So, like a good inventor, he made it work. Then the French backed out. Typical, huh?
 

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If we are just going by caliber, then again the .45 is a relative newcomer, as the .36 (a nominal 9mm) was introduced before the .45.
 

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IIRC, JMB wasn't particularly fond of the .45 caliber. The .45 ACP 1911 was developed specifically at the insistence of the Ordnance Dept. I could be wrong, but that's never happened before:D

vanfunk
 

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Well if we are really talking about caliber didn't Og use a .45 sized rock to bring down Moog in the Neandrathal (sp) Age then yelling over his "one shot stop"..."They all fall to hardball???":biglaugh: :eek: :mummy: :hrm: :D
Sorry...couldn't help it...
Bill
 
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