[nmchenry]

I currently am probably the lowest C class shooter there is. This weekend I practiced the El Presidente because I felt it would give me an opportunity to try to speed myself up. I focused on trying to speed up without losing too many shots but was not always successful. I am curious what scores and times you B and C class shooters tend to make on El Presidente.

 

[Brazos Custom Gunworks]

A GM time would be 5.0 with all 60 points. That would make a B score (60%) 8.33 sec. & 60 points.

------------------
Bob Londrigan
Brazos Custom Gunworks
254-622-2245
http://www.brazoscustom.com

 

[JimH]

Originally posted by nmchenry:
I am curious what scores and times you B and C class shooters tend to make on El Presidente.

It has been 20 years since I shot IPSC so forgive the waste of time if this is irrelevant to your query. Doesn't IPSC have a unlimited and a limited division now? Which are you trying to gauge.

We had an almost regulation El Presidente in the 1998 IDPA nationals. You use pretty normal guns in IDPA, probably similar to IPSC limited. I think it was shot from concealment (and in truth the targets were at 10 meters not yards. Rob Lehtam shot it in 9.5 seconds or there abouts IIRC (the scores are probably still up on the IDPA website but I don't recall which stage it was). Bear in mind that the score included penalties for dropped points (.5 sec. per point). BTW that .5 sec per point is exactly how Jeff Cooper used to do a "shorthand Comstock" version of el pres for glasses at gunsite - easy to figure in your head. "Par" has always been considered 10 seconds but I regard that as "across the board" for all shooters not competitors.

I don't know much about IPSC classes now either (they did not even have Master when I quit - but Jeff Cooper was never big on handing out the title unless you could really shoot! Any way a high C or a low B could probably shoot it clean in 8 or 9 seconds, in those days. Bear in mind that the rounds were tested on a pendulum and had to equal ball from a Commander which is about a 184 PF. No comps and heavy barrels/light slides were unheard of. On the other hand holsters were not necessarily practical.

Hard to say. Perhaps someone knows of a IPSC standard now for both divisions.

Cordially,
Jim Higginbotham

 

[RickB]

I am a long-time C shooter, on the cusp of B. My last El Prez was 7.7 seconds, down maybe five points. That was with 190pf ammo, drawn from street-type gear.

 

[Ankeny]

As a new shooter, I am just now managing to shoot limited classifiers that fall into the bottom of the "B" class and I should move from C to B in the next couple of months. I am planning on A class in Limited by the end of the summer if my 45 year old eyes and reflexes will oblige. Even though I shoot C class, most of my El Pres. times are more what you would expect from an A class shooter.

In my club, we shoot the El Pres on steel IPSC targets as part of our High Altitude Steel Shoot and there is a bit of money involved, so some of us practice the El. Pres way more than the average guy. If you want to improve your shooting, then beating the El. Pres. to death over and over isn't probably the way to go. However, if you break the El Pres. into several discreet little units and then put all of them back together again, then your overall shooting will benefit as well your El Pres times. I broke the drill down into the following steps:

1. Turning around. No I am not kidding. The method that I use is to put most of my weight on my left leg and slightly bend my right knee. At the start signal I swivel my right foot toward the targets as I launch off with my left leg. At the same time my head snaps to the right to acquire the first target. Of course, I am drawing as soon as possible without violating the 180, etc. With a little practice, you will see very little difference between the time to the first shot while turning and the time to the first shot when facing the targets. My first shot is usually at about 1.4 but I have done it faster.

2. Practice target acquisition and your controlled pair with a visual focus split between the sight and target if you can do it. Get your splits below .2 and shot to shot times between targets below .4. These are realistic goals. The old routine of acquire target, look at the sight, shoot, follow through, acquire next target, look at the sight and so on works great on the Steel Challenge, but on an El Pres it can kill you.

3. Practice reloads until you are smooth as glass and never fumble, then build speed, lots of speed. The key is to release the spent magazine just after the shot with just enough follow through to make the hit. Then look at the magazine well while your other hand is going for the magazine and then look the magazine into the well. What I mean is that once your eyes and hands are working in concert, the magazine is going to go in. As the magazine is continuing to the well you can shift your focus back to the target. When you have your grip back and are on target then let ‘er rip without additional hesitation. Get your shot to shot times with a reload under 2 seconds for starters.

4. I am gonna get flamed here, but I’ll say it anyway. We all know that to make good hits on multiple targets you need to come to a complete stop. Sweeping through the targets is not a good plan, but (flame throwers on) if you really want to get fast on an El Pres. then sooner or later you are gonna need to reach out and try to shoot it with a rolling stop.


[This message has been edited by Ankeny (edited 03-12-2001).]

 

[nmchenry]

Thanks for the great replies.
Thanks to Bob for telling me about the 8.33 time/all hits for B. That leads me to believe 10.00/all hits would be for a low-mid C. I am there time-wise but not hit wise yet.
Thanks to JimH on letting me know a high C would be 8-9 seconds and clean. That will be my first goal.
Thanks to RickB for the input as to your 7.7. I am a limited shooter (female and been shooting one year this month) who would love to do 7.7 from street gear with a 190pf. Do you shoot such a high pf because you want to mimic what you carry?
Thanks to Ankeny for your breakdown on the El Presidente. I was pleased to see I turn the same way you do and glad to hear about starting with the weight on the left foot and the other suggestions. You seem to be advancing rapidly.

 

[JimH]

Originally posted by Ankeny:

<snip>I am gonna get flamed here, but I’ll say it anyway. We all know that to make good hits on multiple targets you need to come to a complete stop. Sweeping through the targets is not a good plan, but (flame throwers on) if you really want to get fast on an El Pres. then sooner or later you are gonna need to reach out and try to shoot it with a rolling stop.

We'll see about the flames but you won't get it from me

Your "rolling stop" description is probably the best term I have ever seen for describing the "secret" to multiple targets.

The secret being that there is not a "gaggle" of targets but 3 individual targets in which the fundamentals must be applied in every case.. they just must be applied quickly.

When a pro shoot an El Pres, you cannot hear the "spaces" IOW it is 123456 not 12..34..56 (if that makes sense) but it is because he knows that the time to transition between the targets is wasted and he starts to move his weapon (appologies to the NRA instructor types - my pistol is not a toy - the 2nd Am. does not recognize the "right to keep and bear sporting goods" ) the instant the 2nd shot breaks.

Just like bowling pins, you do not "shoot them on the fly" as you spray and pray you stop just long enough to press off an accurate shot but you don't waste time getting a "second sight picture" - confidence is your main ally.

Good post and a great point! Rolling Stop, I like that!

Best regards,
Jim Higginbotham

PS: The rest of your post was excellent also. The key to developing skill at any complex task is to break it down into its elements. We even break the draw down into 4-6 parts (depending on the instructor) until you can accomplish the goal- *then* of course, you smooth out the steps until it looks like one fluid motion.




[This message has been edited by JimH (edited 03-12-2001).]

 

[et45]

A time of 10.94 with 54 points is 45.699%.I have shot it 2 and 3 seconds faster but with misses or a lot of D hits.A good drill to work on your speed is to start a 7 yards with a IPSC target and aim your gun at the center of the A zone and at the beep fire 6 rounds as fast as you can and still keep your shots in the A zone. Only A hits count,when you can get all A's increase your distance to 12 or 15 yards and start over again striving for all A's.Here also is a tip for the turn, start with your back to the target on the right with your feet shoulder width apart.Turn your right foot as far to the right as you can and flex your knees.At the beep pivot on your right foot and when you come around you will be on the middle target.You can go to www.brianenos.com and www.mattburkett.com and post questions and get advice from two of the top Grandmasters in the country.Brian outlined some practice drills for myself that have really helped.

 

[mike benedict]

I'm also an old time IPSC shooter (when head shots were still called head shots)

I shoot IDPA these days though I think an El Prez is still the "test" for shooter skill.

I don't try anything gamey these days I just start from a normal stance. I shoot 185-190 PF loads all the time from one of my own Kydex holsters with a regular 5" 1911.
My normal times for no ponts down are about 6 On an exceptional day I can just break 5 seconds dropping 4-5 points.
I think the key to a really good score is to watch your splits. The shot to shot on the same target should be within a .1-.2 seconds of the time between the last shot on one target and the first time on the next target.

If you shoot smooth the times will get faster. Don't worry about how fast you turn. It's how fast you shoot that will make the difference.

BTW I'm an IDPA Master all four guns.

Hope this helps
Mike


------------------
Mike Benedict
Custom Kydex Holsters

Talon Tactical Holsters

 

[Ankeny]

Mike:

I think you are right about not worrying too much about turning, assuming you can chew gum and walk at the same time. I honestly had to spend several weeks turning in my living room and dry firing at the top of the blender in my kitchen to get my first shot off in 2 seconds or less. You are indeed fortunate to have been born with a right foot and a left foot, I seem to have been born with two left feet.

 

[Neil Casper]

Ankeny,
If you are ever in north-central Ohio, look me up. I was born with two right feet. Both size 13 EEE. It's the same problem only reversed. I'll swap one of my rights for one of your lefts.
Neil

 

[TVD]

The first and only time I shot the El-Presidente I managed a 6.80's time with all bullets hitting the targets. Although, I did use every A,B,C,D zone!!

...and hey, I just got my USPSA card in the mail, yeahhhhh!
(for those keeping count it's up to A447## series)

[This message has been edited by TVD (edited 03-16-2001).]

 

[Tom Freeman]

A good limited time down no more than three to four points is 5.4 seconds. All classifier hit factors are the same Limited and L-10, although in reality they might be 0.25-.35 seconds slower. Even with a field course such as 99-38 and 43.

Open would be 4.8 seconds down 1, maybe 2.

Production 5.6 seconds down 2-3.

Revolver 6.0 seconds down 2-3.

All of the above would go in as 95%-100%.

Good luck to you all. Speed first, accuracy will come...

Tom Freeman
http://www.limitedgun.com/PPPS

 

[RickB]

I've been shooting IPSC for only three and a half years, but have seen very few, if any, El Prez's shot in less than six seconds. Most shooters would do well to break seven seconds, down a few points. There was a blurb in the new Handgunner about El Prez times, and the author's conclusion was something like "if your times are much over six seconds, you need to shoot more El Prez's."

 

[TaxPhd]

Actually, the conclusion was to shoot more Bll Drills. Work on the timing that leads to speed.

 

[Ankeny]

I have seen two shot in under 5 seconds, both by master class shooters. I was (and still am) in absolute awe of what those guys can do.

 

[Midvalleyshooter]

The El Presidente of old was 3 targets 10 Meters downrange with the targets spaced a meter apart. And you start with your back to the targets standing relaxed hands at sides and feet square. I have seen variations on all the above and it must be taken into account or you are comparing apples and oranges.

DVC
Keith

 

[banjobart]

Gosh, you guys must be slow! I just read in the May/June issue of American Handgunner on page 14 that a Master Class IPSC shooter can rip a sub-four second El Presidente! A good shooter (B-class?) can run it in the six second range with all A-zone hits.

All this time I thought I was a fair shot but now I just found out that I stink. The Editor could put me to shame. Those keyboard marksmen really smoke! (sic).

 

[Rosco Benson]

Originally posted by Midvalleyshooter:
The El Presidente of old was 3 targets 10 Meters downrange with the targets spaced a meter apart. And you start with your back to the targets standing relaxed hands at sides and feet square.

Not to quibble, but the original specified "hands shoulder high" and also specified that the pistol be concealed. If I recall correctly, the targets spacing was 3 meters edge-to-edge.

Rosco

 

[Tom Freeman]

Sub 4 is easy. Just dont look for all my hits.

I have been able to get it down to 4.4 with all my hits, but I had something like 3 or 4 D's. It factored out to be better to do it in 5.3 clean.

Tom Freeman
http://www.limitedgun.com/PPPS