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Discussion Starter #1
I just got finished reading a few posts in the Tactics & Pers. Def. thread and it makes me want to address something from my view point. I DO NOT carry with a round chambered. I have been carying concealed for at least 20 yrs or more. I believe that the assupmtion that you will need to be a "quick draw" in the event of a "situation" is unrealistic. I believe that one should always be as conscious (sp) of ones surroundings as possible at all times. If you do this you should be aware of a situation deteriorating or threatening , and at that point decide if it's time to "rack it". The idea that you are going to be "instantaneously" thrust into a situation where you need to draw and fire like marshall dillon is fantasy. I happen to be a fan of Jeff Cooper and I know his rule of C1. That is all very good if your in a combat situation,(war) but for everyday carry, totally unnecessary. I can't think of a more safer policy than NOT having one in the chamber. What do you think?
 

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I think the whole fight will be over in less than 3 seconds and I have no interest in wasting 10% of the time racking a slide. Speed is a depreciating asset and once lost, is pretty tough to regain. As the Colonel said, speed is a defining element in any fight. Do what you're comfortable with but I prefer a ballistic weapon over an impact tool which is what an unloaded gun is.
 

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There might be times when you have the advantage of a good concealment position and racking the slide might give your position away. Just a thought.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
the actual "gunfight" itself may be over in seconds, but what leads up to it can take many minutes, and a unchambered gun is not unloaded. My point is that this Idea of instant threat and instant response is over exagerrated. MOST of your holders of CCW spend very little time in practice at home or on the range, and carrying a cocked and locked pistol in those hands to me is dangerous. Just look at the post about "accidental Misfires". I knew this post was gonna get some reaction,,thats good though ,,right?
 

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I think the idea behind carrying a gun is to be prepared for the unexpected and to have a means to deal with it. I believe, to a certain extent, that if you carry a gun without a round in the chamber you may as well not be carrying the gun. It might as well be in your car or at home in the safe. With out a round in the chamber you are not completely ready to employ the tool for it's specified purpose. Say you're attacked from behind, how are you going to ready the weapon in the event that one hand is disabled. What if you are trying to fight off an attacker while chambering a round? That sounds pretty complicated to me. No matter how alert you think you are, if your gun isn't ready for use how can you be completely ready to use it? I can't think of a more foolish policy than not having the gun ready for use.
 

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Definitely good to get interraction.

Couple of things that just come to my mind (I do carry C1, and do practice roughly a couple of hundred rounds a week). It only adds about a third of a second to my draw and on target time to leave the chamber empty, could probably get that down some if I really tried.

Consider if a support arm is occupied, or disabled (I know, small chance, but Murphy is still around), so if you want to C3, make sure you practice racking off of leg or belt. Also, vehicle drills (again, in case Murphy is a carjacker) get significantly more complicated if you have to disengage seatbelt, rack slide, then exit; or in close quarters, the draw is now much less compact. Probably the least of my concerns is that I may have something really bad going on near me, but I don't want them to know I'm there. It's just me, but I would prefer to be able to stay quiet until I disengage the safety, I can do that without disturbing a sight picture. Just my 2 cents worth.

One other thought. A lot of the real world stuff is a lot closer than we would like to consider. Sometimes the support arm is involved in blocking, again practice racking on leg or belt if you really want C3.

Don't just think about it, go to the range and try it, make sure you're comfortable with what you do. I've got a few friends that carry C3...and I sure want 'em on MY side if I'm ever in a gunfight!!

[This message has been edited by gm45 (edited 08-28-2001).]
 

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I personally would not want to be under stress, adrenaline pumping, thinking about this problem in front of me, and also trying to ready a weapon by racking the slide on my belt or holster. Now I have to worry about my assailant and the loaded gun I just pointed at my self.
 

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173abn, I'll have to disagree with your comment that an "unchambered gun is not unloaded." If you pull the trigger and it doesn't go bang, it's not loaded. Frankly, I think if a person isn't competent enough to safely carry in the manner in which the weapon was designed, they probably don't deserve to carry a weapon in the first place.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Keep 'em comin' guys! Some good points, some not, but i'm not here to try to convince you to my way of thinkin', that's why it's called a "forum". I've always considered "street smarts" as not being the toughest guy on the street, but to know what street NOT to go down. I have worked in some bad neighborhoods before ( South Jamaica, Queens, N.Y. for example) and have been in some tense situations. ( I'm not LEO) But Ive always been aware they were developing. I stand by my premise that the situation of instant threat, draw, and shoot is pure hollywood. Unless of course you're walking around in a daze all your life.
 

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173abn, you just proved my point. If you know that a situation is developing, leave. That's the only way to guarantee winning the fight. You can carry in condition 6 (for 6th sense) in that circumstance because you won't need a weapon. Condition 1 is for those of us without a crystal ball.
 

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The pistol is a reactive instrument. It is useful for responding to situations that develop quickly. While we should all strive to keep our awareness at a high level, so as to see the threat coming, I can see no benefit that can come from rendering one's sidearm less ready.

What exactly is "more safer" about having an empty chamber?

Rosco
 

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Everything is risk/benefit ratio. If you want safety from accidental discharges, you can have absolute safety... don't carry a gun. If you think carrying a gun in C3 is a good idea, what you are saying is that you think the possibly increased risk of an accidental discharge is greater than the benefit of getting your gun into play a half second faster.
I doubt it.
You seem to base this on the certainty that there is no way for you to end up behind the power curve, because of your awareness and powers of observation.
I doubt it.
Anybody can be trapped, anybody can be tricked, and anybody can let their guard down. You are fooling yourself if you think otherwise. If your powers of observation are good enough that you will always have 5 seconds of warning, you probably don't even need a gun. If you can't guarantee 5 seconds of warning, then you might like to have the half second back you wasted by not chambering a round when you put the gun on.

TB., NC
 

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Discussion Starter #13
If you don't want to render it "less" ready, why even have the safety on? Takes "time" to take it off doesn't it? How many of you (except LEO), have been in a street gun fight? 99.9999percent of your life is spent NOT in a threatening situation. so the gun you're carrying should be carried in as safe a mode as possible. Now, if for some reason your going into a "bad part of town" , maybe then you want to chamber, but if i'm walking the mall, NO.
 

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Most gun fights happen at distances of three yds. or less. That means that my weak arm/hand is probably busy doing some close quarter scuffling. I want to be able to fire my gun one-handed, and as quickly as I can.

One-handed, and as quickly as I can = COCKED AND LOCKED.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
We're gonna play this "what if" game all night aren't we? Next couple of hours should be real interesting. Thanks for all the responses. I'm pretty sure that most of you here on this forum do a lot of shooting and are pretty well trained in the use of the firearms you carry, but you know what? you're in the minority!! MOST gun owners and carriers don't train, don't go to the range regularly, and haven't fired their carry guns since the first box of ammo they put through it. Having them carry cocked and locked frankly scares me,,What do you think? (another thread?)
 

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If you see a bad situation coming and you have time to chamber around then you have time to leave the area. if you are going to a part of town that makes you feel that the danger is real enough to make you load your gun then why go there?My gun is always loaded. I do not think that you will always have time to chamber a round. And if you are carrying a gun that you are afraid to carry loaded then maybe you need a different gun or maybe even a new rock. That is all an empty gun is
 

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Originally posted by 173abn:
I stand by my premise that the situation of instant threat, draw, and shoot is pure hollywood.
Oh really?
 

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173abn,
Just curious...from your posts it sounds like what you really have a problem with is a single action gun...

What do you carry?
 

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This guy is either a troll or he might be related to OKJoe.
 
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