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I would like to end my boycott of Smith & Wesson and Ruger products because:

I would like to buy several products from both companies.

I would like to support American companies in general and Firearm producers in particular.

Although both companies have changed leadership and the ban was allowed to sunset the damage done to all American’s Rights has not been undone. The perception that these measures were reasonable, good ideas is still prevalent in the publics mind. Neither company has made a strong enough or public enough repudiation of their former positions nor the illogical reasoning and unethical philosophy that their former positions stood upon.

A few years ago I was out to dinner with some relatives and personnel security came up and they stated that they were pro-gun and have a firearm for protection. All well and good but they proceed to indicate what a good thing Smith and Wesson had done and how reasonable they were and how unreasonable the NRA was and all the gun nuts etc. Not bashing, not foaming at the mouth just informed and misinformed enough to be very dangerous. They are educated thoughtful people and felt they had an adequate amount of information due to the media AND the shining willing endorsement by one of the largest and best know firearms companies in the world. If it wasn’t good, and reasonable why would Smith and Wesson do it? Right? The point being that even reasonable intelligent people who are not anti-gun but who are not pro-gun to the point of spending time looking into the issues think that NRA, gun owners, and advocates are extreme and “nuts” because S&W and Ruger got behind these issues and gave the Anti-gun crowd credibility.

And here we see the problem and the danger with the sentiment that S&W and Ruger are now under new leadership so we can just let it slip by. Since these companies made such a public incrimination of gun owners, gun ownership and the overall gun industry I feel it is necsarry for a public rejection of those previous positions. More importantly a public affirmation that firearm ownership is an individual right and that the right of the individual to protect themselves and their family, neighbors, and countrymen is the most basic of inalienable rights and that denying a free people access to the means to secure this right is tantamount to denying the right itself.

I would like to start a discussion and hear suggestions as to what we might do to bring a positive end to this boycott and at the same time dissuade any future similar actions by gun companies. I am thinking about some kind of online petition and a letter writing campaign. I know that lawyers would have to get involved before a company made any statement but there must be a simple and clear statement that gun companies can get behind that would affirm the rights of individuals and the importance of defending those rights. It would seem in this way we could try to get all companies in the firearm industry to recognize our position. Any company that did not acknowledge a pro-gun, pro-individual right position would then be exposed for who they were and customers could make their choices.


Regards
 

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I will NEVER, EVER buy SW products ever, ever since I learned that SW is involved in making torturing devices for thr Chinese government. I have a few friends that share the sendiment. Plus their guns are over priced, and not enough 1911s.

Nick
 

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Bottom Line Up Front: There is no boycott. There are die-hards and idealogues who, at this point, make no difference and there are ignorant sheeple who make a disproportionatley large difference.

If "reasonable intelligent people who are not anti-gun but who are not pro-gun to the point of spending time looking into the issues" exist then I say they are willfully ignorant and not worthy of the civil rights they don't know they have.
These people are the problem as are any who fail to exercise and understand their civil rights. I know many leftists who understand the Bill of Rights better than many alleged Second Ammendment supporters.

I don't buy your premise that someone is informed enought to know about S&W and Roogler but not informed enough to see through the "nut" label.


IMO, S&W is fine.
Roogler, on the other hand, will never be fine. They do one positive thing though; if you own a transferrable AC556 they will work on it.
They won't sell you a normal capacity magazine for it but they will work on it. As far as I know they are the only large domestic gun company who will do that. S&W won't service their old machineguns nor will Colt. Colt won't even sell all their legal products to us mere mortals.
Bill Ruger proved to be much more concerned with his own pocket than our rights and that policy continues today.

I don't think any gun company with the exception of Barrett really cares about changing people's minds about our rights. I think they exist to sell a product. When supporting our rights is in their interest they sometimes do so. We should do more to help them like passing liability protection for manufacturers.

S&W submitted in order to continue to exist. Roogler actively collaborated to get a foreign comptetitor with an arguably superior product banned then lobbied to get their cosmetically and politically correct rifle off of "the list".
S&W has ignored the illegal agreement made with old management. Roogler, to this day, refuses to sell a legal product that they actually make.

If a few die-hards want to boycot S&W then I say let them. It will make it easier for me to get the Model 625JM or Model 22 or 1911 that I want.
If they're bothered by the useless, unneeded and irrelevant safety locks and the cosmetic changes or the MIM parts then that means more for me.

Enough Elmer Fudd* and Yosimite Sam* types buy Ruger products that a boycott is a complete waste of time except as a personal exercise.
I simply do not buy Roogler products except for Caspian frames.
There are alternatives to almost everything Roogler makes and in most cases the extra money is worth it.


I know I'll regret posting this before having some coffee. Never post when angry, tired or drunk.


*That's toungue-in-cheek for all three of you that read this and the one of you that takes offense.
 

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270winchester said:
I will NEVER, EVER buy SW products ever, ever since I learned that SW is involved in making torturing devices for thr Chinese government. I have a few friends that share the sendiment. Plus their guns are over priced, and not enough 1911s.

Nick
What torture devices?

Black and Decker makes several "torture devices".

Did you sell your Ginsu knives after Nick Berg was beheaded?
 

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If you are going to get into online petitions and letter writing, it may be better spent on law makers. There are many bills and proposed bills and new laws being looked at all the time. Spend your time trying to change the minds of the lawmakers - eliminate the middleman.
 

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270winchester said:
I will NEVER, EVER buy SW products ever, ever since I learned that SW is involved in making torturing devices for thr Chinese government. I have a few friends that share the sendiment. Plus their guns are over priced, and not enough 1911s.

Nick
Can you back this up with facts Nick ? I for one have given this issue a lot of thought and decided that S&W , and Ruger as well , deserve forgiveness . I understand why the previous management did what they did , and I doubt they will ever do something similar again . If however , their existence was in enough jeopardy to make them think they would be bankrupt or out of business altogether soon , and that was the only way out , their decision might be the same .

By the way , S&W has done a wonderful job of producing their version of the 1911 . Good enough to become one of the top 2 or 3 major players . They are not only selling and producing a quality product at a reasonable price but leading the industry in customer service as well . The others could learn from them .

I would have to see and understand hard evidence regarding torture devices before I would even join a letter writting campaign . Liberal gun hating organizations like nothing better than to falsely accuse a gun manufacturer of producing terrorist weapons for example, when in reality they are the major supplier of police gear . I think Barrett Arms and the .50 cal have had a taste of this in the press . The anti-torture, anti-war , anti-gun industry liberals will tell you anything to get you to withhold purchase dollars and make a donation to them, especially out there in the Bay area :rolleyes: ...Tom
 

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damn...what boycott? :scratch:

run the links....everybody is connected to somebody doing something that ain't up and up in some way, some where, some how.........

i would hate to see where the links the "clean" companies i am invested in for retirement go.

the complexity factor in life got way beyond me years ago.

be safe, shoot well.:rock:
 

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There's no boycott against Smith & Wesson or Ruger, only some cranky people with no particular goal except expressing their generalized unhappiness. Boycotts are intended to accomplish specific, well-defined goals. If there isn't a specific goal nobody could know when it's time to end the boycott: it would go on and on forever, long after its original purpose has been accomplished.

Imagine a minority group boycotting a retail chain for not hiring minorities. So the retail chain reverses its position and hires minorities. That's the time for rational people to stop the boycott: they've accomplished their specific goal. But if the boycotters were gun owners like your friends they would continue to boycott the retail chain forever and ever until the chain suffered, had to start firing employees (including the minorities), and went out of business. That's crazy. But it's what your friends are doing.

Gun owners and other minorities need to recognize that all gains are incremental and need to know when they've won each increment so they can go on to the next, if necessary. But nothing in the world will convince your friends that the boycott they think they're supporting ended years ago. They're as out of touch with reality as Japanese Lt. Hiroo Onada, who spent 29 years after the end of World War II continuing to hide out as a guerilla on Lubang--even though he read a leaflet in 1945 that said "The war ended on August 15. Come down from the mountains!" Your friends and others like them are still up in the mountains, and there they will stay until something within them lets them know that the war against Smith & Wesson has been over for several years.

The Smith & Wesson war started some time in 2000 when its previous owners, the English company Tomkins Corporation, made gun control agreements with the Clinton-Gore administration. Clinton and Gore haven't been President and Vice-President for a long time, and Tomkins hasn't owned Smith & Wesson since May of 2001. It's a different administration and a different ownership, but the gun owning Onadas continue to fight a war that was won more than four years ago. Smith & Wesson itself faces bans against its .50 Caliber handguns in Los Angeles and elsewhere. So while your friends kick the company from what they mistakenly consider a pro-gun direction they're actually joining the anti-gun groups that kick it from the opposite direction.

It's senseless and self-defeating. Of course that's only my opinion, everyone is entitled to an opinion, and everyone's opinion is of equal value so your friends could be at least as right as the other Onadaites. Someone else can tackle the Ruger situation. I'm thinking of boycotting the true enemy of civilization: the manufacturers of brussel sprouts. Those foreign vegetables are not our friends. :)
 

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Yes, Bill Ruger advocated 10 round magazines for "civilians". Dumb, yes, but he's dead now.

Yes, S&W was "leveraged" (intimidated) into making a Devil's Bargain with Clinton administration. It was fluff, and nobody cares anymore, since the company is no longer owned by the British toilet company that made the deal, and is now under American management and ownership again.

Better that gun owners should present a "united front" against those femininistic, cowardly liberal elements who would prefer to annul the Second Amendment than to quarrel among ourselves.
Take the long view, see the "big picture", and stop castigating the gun companies who took a misstep. We're on the same side.
 

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Boycotting gun companies is ridiculous. They are businesses, no more, no less. Some people are "boycotting" Colt because they refuse to sell pre-ban AR's to the public. Try being Colt and having to worry about the next lawsuit the next time one of your "terror weapons" is bought by a nutcase that decides to wipe out all of his former co-workers.

Don't think for a minute that ANY gun manufacturer wouldn't stop selling this or that product to civilians in order to avoid costly lawsuits or having to abide by legal restrictions.
 

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dsk said:
Some people are "boycotting" Colt because they refuse to sell pre-ban AR's to the public. Try being Colt and having to worry about the next lawsuit the next time one of your "terror weapons" is bought by a nutcase that decides to wipe out all of his former co-workers.
Bushmaster hasn't, and Barrett obviously refuses to.

I don't see the issue with Colt being as much a 'boycott' as market action: people want collapsing stocks, flash hiders, bayo lugs, etc. Plus rumor has it that Colt's ARs are not quite to spec - making their parts not as mixable as those from other quality AR makers.

My problem with S&W started with the devil's deal... my problem with S&W ended when they started selling legal equipment when the ban expired. If it is substantiable that they are actually selling equipment to China that they know is used in brutality toward civilians, I think I might once again have a problem with them. Can anyone substantiate this claim?

Ruger now sells 15 capacity 9mm mags. I guess this does a little to break their image of pro-aw-ban, but I'm not sure. I'm still skeptical that they still support such things because of what Mr. Ruger said.
Robert Hairless said:
I'm thinking of boycotting the true enemy of civilization: the manufacturers of brussel sprouts. Those foreign vegetables are not our friends. :)
:biglaugh:
 

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Boycotts?

I hadn't heard about the boycott against Ruger. What did they do?

As for S&W....I'm still a bit miffed about the Clinton deal but that's not why I haven't purchased any of their products. I won't buy any firearms of any manufacturer with built in locks on principle. Does that qualify as a boycott? If it does, then I resent being labeled as a cranky die-hard idealogue. After all, It's my damn money. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and like ***holes, everybody has one; but not everyone wants to see your *ss.
 

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The goal of my "boycott" (lousy use of the term) of Ruger and Sheitz und Weasel is not to buy any of their products. That's good enough for me.
 

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270winchester said:
I will NEVER, EVER buy SW products ever, ever since I learned that SW is involved in making torturing devices for thr Chinese government. I have a few friends that share the sendiment. Plus their guns are over priced, and not enough 1911s.

Nick
I love the Internet! There's never been a better way to turn nonsense into truth or to distort innocent behaviors into the Devil's own work. I spent a few minutes tracking down that rumor you're spreading about S&W being "involved in making torturing devices for the Chinese government." The rumor comes from an Amnesty International report entitled The Pain Merchants: Security equipment and its use in torture and other ill-treatment published in 2003.

The Amnesty International report starts with the fact that Smith & Wesson is among the companies that make security devices such as shackles and handcuffs. That's true: I've seen Smith & Wesson shackles and handcuffs. The report goes on to state that the Bush Administration approved the sale of security devices to China, including the Smith & Wesson shackles and handcuffs. I don't know that but I'll assume it's true too. The report states that Chinese government agencies bought those security devices (including the Smith & Wesson shackles and handcuffs) and issued them to its agents. That makes sense to me: why else would any government buy such things? The report charges that those agents of the Chinese government used those security devices (such as the Smith & Wesson shackles and handcuffs) to restrain people in order to torture them. I don't know that that's true but I'm willing to believe that tyrannical governments behave that way. The Amnesty International report puts all of those reasonabe statements together to conclude that Smith & Wesson, and the Bush Administration, are therefore responsible for what the Chinese government does with those security devices.

Whoa! Don't you recognize that Amnesty International's rationale is exactly the same distorted thinking used by the gun grabbers? Sensible people--not only gun owners--spend a lot of time and effort arguing that "Guns don't kill people. People kill people." The idea is that objects themselves aren't inherently good or evil: it's what people do with the objects that count. If you buy the distortion that Smith & Wesson is knowingly producing shackles and handcuffs as torture instruments, you need to work hard to get our own police to stop using shackles and handcuffs. If those objects are evil in China, they're evil here too. So when a cop arrests a suspected murderer the cop should not put that suspect into handcuffs, and if a deranged person is prevented from jumping off a bridge he should not be shackled: the cops are using torture devices.

Where that distorted thinking takes us is that Rosie O'Donnell's spoon really is to blame for her obesity, that guns really do kill people, and that China isn't responsible for its actions. Don't get mad at me for saying these things: blame Gateway for making the computer that sends the words to the forum. Gateway should have known that I might use it to write messages like this, right?

Does anyone seriously believe that China or any other country with a mind to torture people would stop doing it if they did not have Smith & Wesson shackles or handcuffs to restrain the victims? The Nazis tortured and murdered millions of people without using Smith & Wesson products and the Romans nailed two timbers together to restrain their victims almost two millenia before Smith & Wesson got into the business of making restraints.

Rumors like these are wondrous things. They have a life of their own and can destroy so much even when they're untrue, incredible, or distortions. What's troubling is that many people seem gullible enough to believe anything that coincides with their own view of the world and even when it hurts what they claim to value.
 

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I'd like to know about the torture devices

that Smith & Wesson makes. I have purchased a Smith & Wesson since the end of the boycott, an SW1911. I would like to pick up an M&P and a couple of revolvers too, but I also won't buy a gun with an internal lock unless the device can be completely removed (think Springfield's ILS, the part can be removed, no evidence that it was ever there). I'd rather not have a gun with a warning label on the side, but that is something I can deal with in refinishing. As for Colt, I was under the impression that they were limiting the sale of certain items ("high capacity" magazines, and certain configurations) because of capacity issues and previous commitments to military/LEO contracts, not as a way of covering their backsides legally. What it really amounts to is limited availability (one must go to a Law Enforcement dealer) of their products.

My 2¢

Robert
 

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Robert Hairless said:
... Don't get mad at me for saying these things: blame Gateway for making the computer that sends the words to the forum. Gateway should have known that I might use it to write messages like this, right?...
OK I'll boycott Gateway. How about your teachers, they should have known by teaching you to write you would use it for evil purposes, let's ban teachers also.
 
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